Wednesday, September 28, 2005
Dr. Sheldon Horowitz (Moderator):
Good afternoon (or evening!) and welcome to LD Talk, an online discussion devoted to topics of interest to the learning disabilities community. LD Talk is a service of the National Center for Learning Disabilities (NCLD). It’s a pleasure to welcome you to the today’s chat - Thanks for joining us!
Today’s topic is Life Success for Students with Learning Disabilities. If you haven’t already done so, please be sure to visit www.LDsuccess.org where you can find a wonderful new guide (this one for teachers) based on a longitudinal study conducted by researchers at the Frostig Center in Pasadena CA.
Joining us today are we are two of the principal researchers on this study: Dr. Roberta Goldberg and Dr. Eleanor Higgins.
Roberta J. Goldberg, Ph.D. is Director of the Consultation and Education Department, and Research Associate in the Research Department at the Frostig Center in Pasadena, California. Dr. Goldberg received her Doctorate in Developmental Psychology and School Psychology from the University of Minnesota. Her research interest is in the area of success factors for individuals with learning disabilities.
Eleanor L. Higgins, Ph.D. is Director of Research at the Frostig Center in Pasadena, California. She received her doctoral degree in anthropology with a specialty in linguistics from the University of California, Riverside. She is currently conducting longitudinal research on persons with learning disabilities in the areas of assistive and instructional technology. Dr. Higgins has published numerous articles on technology for persons with learning disabilities and on the quantitative and qualitative findings of a twenty-year follow-up study. She is a fellow of the International Academy for Research in Learning Disabilities, and a frequent presenter at national and international conferences on learning disabilities.
I am Dr. Sheldon Horowitz, Director of Professional Services at the National Center for Learning Disabilities, and I’ll be moderating today’s discussion.
To those of you who have submitted questions in advance of today’s chat, many thanks! As usual, we encourage everyone to send in questions and we’ll try to respond to those that are most closely related to our discussion topic and of the broadest interest to our audience. (If you have questions unrelated to this topic, please feel free to send them to NCLD’s Help Desk at This e-mail address is being protected from spam bots, you need JavaScript enabled to view it .)
Let's begin the discussion.
Question from Jillian, Nalpes, FL:
My son just started 6th grade. He is really smart but he seems to have tremendous trouble staying organized. His handwriting is terrible and his school papers are a mess, and at the same time, he is a gifted writer and has a wonderful imagination. He gets upset with himself when he doesn't do well on an assignment, and very often needs to be reminded to do things, even when they are part of his daily routine. I know that its only a matter of time before his teachers say something. How can I get him to take more responsibility for himself? He has so much potential and I don't want to wait until he is having real problems.
Dr. Roberta Goldberg, Ph.D.:
The first thing that comes to mind is to introduce this 6th grader to some of the assistive technology that is readily available. There are many problems you have described that may be amenable to this type of intervention. For example, you mention his handwriting is ’a mess’; perhaps a laptop computer would allow him to type out his papers, spell and grammar check them, and even organize them using computer-based graphic organizers. There is additional software that can help such as speech recognition, which would allow him to speak into a microphone and have the words converted to computer text. There is word prediction that can allow him to type just the beginning of a word, then choose from a list which word he wants. There is speech synthesis, which can read the text he has written out loud to help him proofread and/or make revisions. There is also software available that can help him keep track of assignments and organize his activities such as palm pilots, reminder watches, etc. On the low-tech end, he might try dictating into a tape recorder to ’get his ideas out,’ then transcribe and revise them later.
In working with young writers, I have found that certain important steps such as pre-planning and revision (not just proof-reading) are often skipped in the writing process. Although some writers fear that these steps impede inspiration, spontaneity or creativity, after a bit of practice, they can see the benefits in the improved finished product, such that their creativity can really shine through and be forcefully communicated to the reader. Revision can also work as a ’feedback loop’ that further improves the first draft by helping the writer anticipate common problems he/she has experienced during previous revision experiences.
Question from Vanessa H. Taylor, parent of a daughter with LD and epilepsy:
My daughter is in tenth grade. She has LD and is following an "occupational" curriculum that will allow her to obtain a high school diploma. We opted for this path because she has problems with her memory (due to her seizures)and had a difficult time with "End Of Grade" testing and computer skills testing. She would not be able to obtain a diploma if she did not pass these test even though she has always had an IEP. My question is: What are some of the avenues can she take after high school to ensure that she will be able to obtain a job, career or profession? Can you suggest any programs that we can look into? To look at my girl, there is no clue that she has developmental delays and she can perform most every day task well. Of course her epilepsy has to be considered in any choices she makes. Any suggestions would be appreciated, Thank you
Dr. Eleanor Higgins, Ph.D.:
Many of the successful adult participants in our longitudinal study told us that once they reached high school, they had more freedom to pursue their ’passionate’ interests, such as art, computers, competitive sports, cooking (look at Martha Stewart!), photography, drama, gaining experience in caring for little ones by teaching at their place of worship, babysitting, etc., rather than spend all their time trying to overcome their academic weaknesses By developing these talents and special interests, many successful adults had been able to capitalize on what they could do well, and succeed in adult employment. For example, the woman who had babysat and taught Sunday school became a play therapist! She was able to capitalize on her great social skills to develop a network of professional contacts in her field that allowed her to live her dream and actually get paid for doing what she loved!
I would do everything possible to encourage your daughter to discover and pursue her talents and passionate interests, whether it be caring for pets, gardening, designing clothes, fixing computers, opening a comic book store, the list of successful ’odd’ jobs (idiosyncratic professions?) is limited only by her imagination, really. This might be the ideal time for her to gain some experience in the field of her choice, either by paid employment or by arranging ’internships’ through your high school’s transition program, or even independently volunteer at local businesses to gain the work experience she will need to obtain employment when she is ready. I would make it a point to be meet with transition services personnel at her high school and discuss options and directions she might pursue as soon as possible so that she will be prepared for employment when she graduates.
You might also take a look at the companion ’Parent Guide to the Success Attributes,’ also on this website, for some direction in initiating conversations and exploration of her strengths at home, as well.
Thanks for your question!
Question from This e-mail address is being protected from spam bots, you need JavaScript enabled to view it :
I have readthe article "Life Success for children with Leaning Disabilities" and agree with it all. My biggest challenge is even though my child is enrolled in special education and receives some help from some very concerned teachers, there are several teachers that feel it is beyond their ability to do more than be able to provide curriculum that is required for their class. Any more such as emailing parents with assignments or concerns is considered too much work for them, while I am willing to do whatever it takes, I feel my hands are tied this way. I make a point of constantly being in touch with my sons teachers and feel they thing I am protecting him in some way. I am just trying to do what I know works with him and his learning, not trying to tell them what they are doing is wrong, but that it will probably not work with him.
Dr. Eleanor Higgins, Ph.D.:
Hi Joey:
With more special needs children being mainstreamed in school settings, this is not an uncommon problem. It sounds as though some of the your child’s teachers need some education/assistance on modifying their curriculum to accommodate the variety of needs presented by their students.
When discussing your own child with them, it might help to bring up the fact that there are many students who also need modifications if they are to master the material being presented.
When describing ’what works’ for your own child, you might bring up that there are probably more students in the class who could benefit also from trying alternative strategies as well.
Teachers in the public sector right now tell us that more is expected of them in terms of teaching to the ’standards,’ and meeting the obligations of ’No Child Left Behind.’ Remind them (gently, helpfully) that making accommodations for your child will probably benefit many others, and help many of his/her students from being ’Left Behind.’
Question from Rebecca Martin, teacher, Dayton, Ohio:
Are there one or more of the success attributes that are more important to life success than others? if so, please explain why.
Dr. Eleanor Higgins, Ph.D.:
Although we did not conduct statistical testing of the possible relationships between the attributes (antecedent/subsequent), it seemed to the authors that some of the attributes were logically related to one another in ways that suggest they may develop concurrently.
For example, it would be difficult to set ’realistic’ goals without also developing self-awareness (of strengths, weaknesses, interests, passions, idiosyncrasies) either concurrently or previous to considering setting personal goals. Similarly, actually achieving some of the goals one sets seems to involve both proactivity and perseverance, perhaps even the development of social support systems for assistance, guidance, and encouragement.
Additionally, perhaps developing a means of reducing or coping with stress seems, logically speaking, to be helpful if not necessary for the development of some of the other attributes such as social support systems, perseverance, etc.
Question from Richard P., South Bend, IN:
Our older son has a learning disability and ADHD, he has an IEP and he makes good use of accommodations such as extended time on tests and permission to resubmit written assignments with feedback so he can correct spelling and grammar. As far back as I can remember, he has had a rough start of EVERY school year because teachers are not relaying information from one grade to the next. He tries to be a good self-advocate but this process really wears him (and us!) down. My younger son is heading toward middle school and I wish there was some way to protect him from having to go through the same process. Should't the school do a better job? Is there anything we can do without seeming like we're pushy parents?
Dr. Roberta Goldberg, Ph.D.:
You might try a few of the activities suggested in the ’Proactivity’ section of the teacher guide and/or parent guide for both your sons. In my experience, most students don’t have difficulty with everything, but rather one or two courses which are particularly troublesome for them such that they may need accommodation. Perhaps as parents you could encourage them to examine their daily schedules, and anticipate which teachers they may need to speak with at the beginning of the year to discuss accommodation. Perhaps the list can be reduced to a few encounters they can manage more easily. For example, English class may be troublesome, but science, P.E., art and math can be skipped, since they do fine at these without accommodation. Also, that feeling of being ’worn down’ may be assuaged as your younger son finds more exposure in middle and high school to activities that accentuate his strengths, such as music or sports, or other passionate interests he is allowed to cultivate and at which he may excel for the first time. Many of the persons in our research study found their self-esteem and struggles to actually lessen as they proceeded through adolescence.
Question from J. James, parent, Atlanta, GA:
I know how important it is to persevere, but what can I do to keep my son from giving up? He is a smart (intelligent)boy, tries hard to study, and his teachers are doing what they can. The problem is that no matter how hard he studies, he keeps getting mediocre grades. He really is trying, and he's spending so much time on school work that he barely sees his friends anymore. The 70s and Cs are chipping away at his self-image and I'm convinced that he's already started to see himself as a failure. He's in 11th grade and at this rate I'm worried that he won't even want to think about college.
Dr. Eleanor Higgins, Ph.D.:
Many of our participants described their high school experience similarly. They did what they could to keep up, but told us a constant menu of academically challenging courses grinded them down. Many received relief and hope by branching out to pursue some of their ’passions,’ such as art, sports, gardening, pottery, or at least getting a break from the ’beating their head against the wall with the reading and writing thing’ as one participant put it. At best, they may develop skills, perhaps even a profession by following these natural proclivities and, yes, obsessions. It is sometimes difficult for educators, myself included, to realize that each child is more than just a brain sitting inside a head, but a whole person, with a body and feelings, interests, desires.
If your son begins now to discover what his passions and proclivities are, he may decide he CAN go to college...as an artist, a recreational therapist, a computer teacher, an entrepreneur. Look at Charles Schwab, or the fellow who founded Kinko’s. Both struggled with LD throughout their schooling. (For more celebs with LD, and lots of other interesting stuff for young people with LD, visit sparktop.com) You might try to assist him in finding what he truly enjoys doing, and making a career out of that...even video games. I have a cousin who was hooked on them, then invented one, and is now a millionaire!
Question from James K:
I was diagnosed with dyslexia in the 4th grade and during my senior year of college. I am currently an attorney with the federal government. One of my big issues is when I am dealing listening to someone recite a complicated problem I automatically (not sure how else to describe it) turn off processing visual data. That is to say my eyes stay open but nothing is registering. While this helps me with understanding the oration, people sometimes think that I am not paying attention to what they are say (I will admit I probably look like I am day dreaming). Do you have any advice, beyond alerting the other party of what I am doing, as to how I can better interact during these types of situations?
Dr. Roberta Goldberg, Ph.D.:
HI James:
thanks for your question.
Yes, there is that social expectation that you look at the person who is talking. Just off the top of my head, you could try fixing your gaze at a blank spot on their face (e.g., their forehead just above their eyes, so it ’looks like’ you are listening. Another approach would be to explain your behavior in apologetic terms. (e.g., ’I find it easier to figure out a problem when I am staring into space; believe me, I’m not inattentive as I may appear to be. It’s just the way I concentrate best.’)
It would seem best to keep explanations brief, however. You might try practicing one or two strategies with a friend first, to see how it ’goes over,’ i.e., have him give you his impression of your attempt or strategy. Keep trying a few approaches until you find one that ’works’ for you.
Question from Gerardo Aguayo, Parent:
It has been suggested to me that Behavoir Modification Programs (Wilderness Camps ) and Therapeutic Boarding Schools have succes in helping children with ADHD or other LD's What is your opinion in regard of this programs, and if you possible can suggest other options instead. Thank you
Dr. Roberta Goldberg, Ph.D.:
I think of behavior modification programs as quite different from wilderness camp experiences. Behavior modification, as I understand it, attempts to modify troublesome behaviors, or encourage desirable ones, by using positive or negative concrete and/or at a later time, social reinforcement. In other words, concrete rewards, such as candy, tokens for prizes, etc. are handed out for desirable behavior, such as finishing an assignment. By manipulating the schedule of reinforcement (e.g., starting with a concrete reward such as a piece of candy every time the desired behavior occurs to partial or intermittent reinforcement) and toward social rather than concrete reinforcers (such as a ’good job’ comment or a smile from the teacher) rather than concrete rewards each time the behavior is performed. My understanding of wilderness camp experiences is that children are placed in situations that are designed to develop social skills (such as trust of others, reciprocity, cooperation, etc.) and improved self-esteem (self-reliance, self-trust, exploration of strengths, physical endurance, social competence, and emotional stability in the face of crisis) in a more indirect and realistic situation than the typical classroom setting. As to therapeutic boarding schools, I know that they differ quite dramatically in their ideas of ’therapy’ so it is difficult to comment on them as a whole.
I would suggest in the selection of any of these treatment options that you visit the facility and observe teachers and counselors interacting with children in classrooms, dormitories, and other daily activities. I would take it as an ominous sign if the facility discourages visits or parental involvement in treatment while it is being conducted. Talk to the kids as well and see what they have to say about their experiences, and bring your child so that he can ask questions as well.
It is also important to determine what kind of assistance your child actually needs. Other options are available for children with ADHD and/or LD. Special education programs are offered by most public school districts, and many private (day) schools exist that specialize in assisting this population. With ADHD, medication is a treatment option, and with LD, an educational (remedial) intervention seems more appropriate as a first step (such as after school tutoring, special commercial programs designed to address academic deficits if no other social or behavioral problems are severely hampering your child’s development). Also, working on fostering the success attributes discussed in the website is an additional path that could be pursued! There is actual research to support the efficacy of helping your child develop these traits!
Please note, when you go to our website for teachers, that we also have available on the same website, a guide for parents of children with LD to foster the development of the success attributes. This guide is completely accessible, and can be downloaded FOR FREE. You can also order a printed copy of the Parent Guide for $5.00 per copy from us.
Question from Laura Kaloi, Public Policy Director, NCLD:
Parents that contact NCLD are often looking for distinct answers about how to help their child (especially teenagers) complete High School and go to college. Understanding that each child is unique, are there any specific strategies that apply to most students who have successfully graduated and gone on to gain post secondary education and have careers?
Dr. Eleanor Higgins, Ph.D.:
Hi Laura:
Thanks for your question.
About half of our successful adults completed college, although perhaps not in 4 years (perseverance)!
Even more got most of the way there before transitioning to an employment setting. The way they told us they accomplished this was to locate a college that had support services for persons with disabilities that included a substantial LD component (proactivity); they took lighter class loads(self-awareness); they spoke with their professors beforehand to ensure they could get the accommodations they needed (more proactivity); they sought social support from their peers and their family (use of social support systems).
They learned to use technology that would help them compensate for shortcomings (tape recording lectures, speech recognition, dictating essays and papers that could be transcribed later, using speech synthesis, books on tape).
They worked twice as hard at studying than the other students (realistic goal-setting), without complaint. In other words, they practiced many of the success attributes! With one or two exceptions, they were able to parlay their education into successful careers, although perhaps not ’mainline’ professions such as medicine or law. We had a clothing designer, a child therapist, an independent computer consultant, a retail clothing manager, the owner of a computer company, a docent at the observatory, a real estate broker, a potter and art instructor, a paramedic, a greeting card producer, a music video director, a funeral director, an accountant, a car salesman, a film location scout ... the list goes on.
Question from Donna, parent:
My daughter is very bright but has significant NVLD and central auditory processing issues. One of the real struggles I have as a parent are the low academic standards being set for her in her school settings. I have been specific in my requests to have her challenged academically, and it doesn't seem to happen. How do I as a parent, effectively measure how much she can accomplish, and how do I drive higher expectations for her at school? I feel as though she is one of the children being left behind...
Dr. Eleanor Higgins, Ph.D.:
Dear Donna:
It sounds as though you have already tried to work and/or communicate your concerns with instructors, to no avail. Perhaps you might begin to do some ’homework ’with your daughter to:
(1) explore here academic capabilities by giving her short assignments you think she should be able to do, and observe the results. Then adjust the assignment, making it easier, harder, until you find her level, and then begin to challenge her a little.
(2) Help her with encouraging words, ’good job’, ’nice try’ so you can raise her confidence and eventually her expectations for herself.
(3) Explore her areas of passionate interest, talent and perhaps (as yet) undeveloped expertise. As to ’..how do I drive higher expectations for her at school?’ You might begin to meet with teachers, bring some of the products she has produced in your exploratory work, to alter their perceptions of her current academic skill levels. But I would not expect their instantly altering their expectations for her. Changing their expectations may be more challenging than changing hers for herself!
Question from Mary Arellano, grandmother & foster parent:
Can you give me information that I can share with teachers on working effectively with students with ADHD/ADD...my grandson has been diagnosed with ADHD (he is a 6th grader). My daugher-in-law & I do not feel the teachers have the training needed to work this child. My foster son has ADD & is a senior in high school who seems to have been pushed thru the system and I am concerned that he will get in trouble as he often does and not graduate. We are working on a behavior plan for him but the school is not challenging him to learn, they seem to have given up on him. Both of these children attend a small rural school.
Dr. Roberta Goldberg, Ph.D.:
You might refer the 6th grade teacher to the NCLD website at www.LD.org to gain knowledge and resources for children with ADD and ADHD. She can also try examining our curriculum in the Teacher Guide of the Success Attributes on ldsuccess.org for activities and resources for coping with LD and ADHD issues in academic settings and in later life. Also since you seem to know quite a bit about ADD yourself, you might want to share with her interventions to increase attention, perseverance, and everyday activities, as well as to master the management his own self-advocacy activity. For the high school student, you may want to investigate a new book by Edward M. Hollowell entitled, "Delivered from Distraction", published by Ballantine Books in 2005. He shares wonderful anecdotes about students with ADD and the challenges they face in school and in their adult lives. He offers strategies for both parents and students to compensate for organizational and attentional issues. These might add new life to his behavior plan and his teacher's attitude about him. Perhaps she will be motivated to seek more information that may assist your student, as well as others with similar difficulties.
Question from Daniel, parent in NY:
My friend has a 9th grader who has central auditory processing issues and who, despite lots of support in school and at home, continues to be reluctant to 'take charge' in school. Is there something unique about this problem that makes it more difficult for him to self-advocate? Is it possible that he's just not mature enough to connect with his teachers and figure out a way to stay up to date with his studies? His parents are very concerned, frequently in touch with school personnel, and always available to help at home. Any suggestions?
Dr. Eleanor Higgins, Ph.D.:
I am not sure what ’central auditory processing issues’ are, in terms of what academic difficulties this 9th grader may exhibit. Does he have difficulty hearing speech sounds, understanding speech, speaking, reading, spelling, writing, sounding out words, computing, understanding math concepts? Without knowing to what the term refers, it is difficult to answer the question of whether there is something unique about it that makes it more difficult for him to self-advocate. However, in my experience, children who have had failure experiences can suffer from embarrassment and in many cases harassment from fellow students and even inadvertently instructors. They can be more likely to get discouraged, ’hide out’ in class, not draw attention to themselves, feel ashamed, and behave passively to avoid ridicule. This would appear to be a ’natural’ kind of defense against such emotional pain. They may need special attention and encouragement to try other positive and assertive solutions
It sounds as if he is receiving good support and encouragement from parents, however. They may want to take a look at the Success Attribute Guide for Parents, also on this website ldsuccess.org. It is completely accessible and downloadable, and a hard copy can be purchased from the website as well for $5. This may assist them in providing experiences that will help their son become more self-aware, proactive, accepting of social support, etc., regardless of his academic difficulties. Parents could also direct teachers and school personnel to the Teacher’s Guide for developing some of these traits in their students who struggle with independence, self-advocacy, etc.
Question from Dr. Sheldon Horowitz:
The Life Success guides specifically mention the importance of students knowing the law and what entitlements and protections it provides. Could you share what you would consider to be the 1 or 2 most important details of the law that students should know about and be able to articulate at different points in their schooling, and perhaps give a few examples?
Dr. Roberta Goldberg, Ph.D.:
Hi Sheldon:
Thanks for your question. it is an important one!
I would make sure a student knew he/she was entitled to ’reasonable accommodation’ and would role play situations with him or her that will probably come up in school, and employment settings. For example, a student with LD has the right to request more time on a test, a different (quieter?) setting, assistive technology such as tape recorders, computers, books on tape, etc. In the job setting you may role play situations that come up such as telling an employer he/she will need to run written work by someone for proofreading, will require more time to double check math calculations, etc., need to tape record meetings so he/she won’t miss important information or the details of task assignments.
Of course, before a student or employee can ask for accommodation, they must ’self-disclose’ the exact nature of their learning disability. This is not always an easy thing to do or learn. The details of how he/she portrays the difficulties is very important to their feeling comfortable asking for accommodations. This self-disclosure should also be practiced by role-playing with various friends, family members, and obtaining feedback from them on how he/she came across. It is helpful to specify what tasks and activities he/she will have difficulty with, rather than use too much LD jargon, expecting the employer or instructor to understand these often obscure terms. In other words, ’I need extra time to read reports,’ is clearer to an employer than, ’I have phonological processing problems while decoding.’
Question from Stephen H., educator, Port Jervis, PA:
How effective is "coaching" in helping students with LD to become more successful? And how about for adults? There are lots of people advertising their services as coaches, and while I've heard about job coaching, I'm not sure if and how it would benefit someone with LD.
Dr. Roberta Goldberg, Ph.D.:
Hi Stephen:
Thanks for your question.
I’m not entirely sure what these ’coaches’ do, or charge, but I don’t see why a parent, teacher or even another person with LD couldn't do such coaching.
In the Teacher Guide there are many suggested activities, and in the Parent Guide there are general guidelines for teaching the successful strategies we discovered through our 20-year longitudinal research on successful persons with LD.
Question from B. Greene, Albany, NY:
My daughter is very quiet, a terrific artist, and barely making it through high school. Her teachers think she has lots of potential and are encouraging her to apply to college as an art major. She, on the other hand, only wishes she was smarter and able to compete academically. She has both learning disabilities and ADHD, but I think it's her low self-esteem that will ultimately hold her back. I wish I knew what to do to get her excited about her future. Any suggestions?
Dr. Eleanor Higgins, Ph.D.:
Thanks for your question.
We have a number of students at Frostig who struggled academically but excelled at art. One is currently in an art institute, practicing photography. She benefitted from our Success Attributes program while here where learned to understand the differences in her ability in art as opposed to academics.
In the Parent Guide, also on this website, there are some suggestions for parents to help their children consider their strengths and weaknesses, and take these into consideration in ’finding their niche.’ We also heard from our participants that pursuing their passions, like art, sustained them through their difficulties struggling with academics.
We are considering your concerns about assisting her with building self-esteem. From our experience with the above student, we found that her formal 4-year art institute was a rather ’critical’ environment (i.e. critiquing her art) to which she transitioned from our supportive, (protective?) environment. She may have benefitted from a semester or two at the local community college, with some support from the Office of Disabled Students, such as counselling, tutoring assistance, use of a high-tech assistive technology center, and friends! jShe might also benefit from working with younger children in the area of art to gain confidence in her abilities.
Dr. Sheldon Horowitz (Moderator):
For additional information and resources about ADHD, a few helpful Web sites are: 1. Children and Adults with Attention Deficit Disorder (www.chadd.org) 2. The National Resource Center on ADHD (www.help4adhd.org) 3. Attention Deficit Disorder Association (www.add.org)(note: focus is primarily is on adults) 4. There is also an easy-to-understand booklet published by the National Institute for Mental Heath on ADHD (http://www.nimh.nih.gov/publicat/adhd.cfm)
Question from Denise Sailstad, parent of two college children with Learning Disabilities, Durham, NC:
Just a short comment: As a parent that has survived a multitude of aspects (emotionally, physically, financially) to look at my children now is an awesome experience. Reviewing the points that you indicate as important for success was so reassuring! But, please discuss the level of commitment and perservance and external support that parents NEED to assist their children. Also, even as they approach adulthood, we have done so by keeping our sense of humor and realize that every step along the way (yes, even when they are 20 and 22) you are continuing to teach them by example, expectation and loving support that you believe in them! Also, the amount of energy and resources that it takes can leave upper -middle income parents with little resources to pay for the type of college suited for LD children. We took each year as it came (day actually), spending funds on enrichment, tutors, developmental experts, psychologists, etc... this left no savings for the college fund as parents without LD children have... In a sense, we, as parents get a sense that our children face every day... life isn't always fair! And, we just do the best that we can and are thankful for what we DO have!
Dr. Roberta Goldberg, Ph.D.:
Denise:
Thanks for sharing your wisdom with us!
I would like to share with you, that virtually every adult participant in our study brought up the appreciation they felt for their parents’ labor and sacrifice during childhood and adolescent years. Here at the Frostig Center, we see these daily as we observe parents go the extra mile to ensure that their child gets what they need in the way of academic, emotional and social support. The hours spent at the kitchen table pouring over puzzling lessons, the shuttling between tutoring, special day programs, in addition to the soccer practice, ballet lessons, and school events that enrich their children’s lives and chances for success, is mind boggling to us. Please know that your children, if they are anything like the adults we interviewed, are keenly aware of and grateful for your efforts. Here is a quote from one of our successful adult informants:
’My parents didn’t go to Europe every year like the other families here. They spent their money making sure my brother and I got a decent education. That’s what they cared about, and I know now how hard that must have been for them.’
Question from Jacquelyn Gaiters-Jordan, Instructor, Pikes Peak Community College, Colorado Spings, CO:
As a Developmental Educator at a community college, I often have non-traditional aged students (usually over age 27) that have undiagnosed learning disabilities. I sometimes feel ill-equipped to assist these students. How can I how help these students succeed & how can advise students when college may not be the best choice for them?
Dr. Roberta Goldberg, Ph.D.:
First, I would direct them to the your office of disabled student services (ODS) to be diagnosed, or identified so that they can qualify for assistance from the ODSS. Assistance may include provision of assistive technology, tutoring, test accommodation, and a myriad of other services.
In addition, as an instructor, you may want to discuss accommodations they (or you) might make informally in your particular class that may help them. Such things as having a capable student put a piece of carbon paper under their class notes and giving a copy to the struggling student is an example of one simple solution that can be enormously helpful. Contact your ODSS for more suggestions.
In terms of advising students as to whether they should remain in college, I would first suggest that they try to make as many accommodations as they can and avail themselves of special services, before counseling them that college is not for them. You would be surprised at the great benefits being in a college environment can bring to a person with a disability, beyond the subject matter of particular classes or a paper degree. They can acquire life-long survival skills, friendships, social life, and confidence in their ability to overcome obstacles.
Many students are so deeply motivated to succeed or pursue their passionate interests, that they may surprise you at what they can accomplish, even academically. Anything you can do to help them not give up on themselves is a great gift.
Question from Mary Kobane, Professor/Learning Disabilities Specialist; Santa Ana College:
I work at a community college with adults with learning disabilities. This year, while on sabbatical leave, I am working on a project on transitioning high school students with LD to college and providing other post-secondary options to students who do not have the cognitive skills to succeed in college. One of our largest problems is inappropriate referrals from the K-12 districts. When former "special day class" students are referred, they will almost certainly fail because they have never experienced the rigor of a mainstream high school course. I think that part of an overall attitude that "students must attend college or they are losers," and also less vocational classes/opportunities for all students. I have lots of ideas but would like to know if this seems to be a common problem across the country.
Dr. Eleanor Higgins, Ph.D.:
First, it is our understanding that in California we have mandated transition programs for all special education students, including LD students. I am unclear about the population you are serving, since it is also my understanding that most LD students are dual enrolled or mainstreamed in general education classes, and most certainly in high school. They should be receiving transition assistance long before they graduate and arrive at your college. I would inquire with the Special Education programs at your feeder high school districts to see what preparation these students may have had.
Further, if they do in fact receive transition services they should already be aware of services provided by local community colleges. If they do not have this information when they arrive, perhaps posting bulletins or posters in prominently visited places such as the bookstore, library will announce to them that you have services already established.
In terms of advising students as to whether they should remain in college, I would first suggest that they try to make as many accommodations as they can and avail themselves of special services, before counseling them that college is not for them. You would be surprised at the great benefits being in a college environment can bring to a person with a disability, beyond the subject matter of particular classes or a paper degree. They can acquire life-long survival skills, friendships, social life, and confidence in their ability to overcome obstacles. Many students are so deeply motivated to succeed or pursue their passionate interests, that they may surprise you at what they can accomplish, even academically. Anything you can do to help them not give up on themselves is a great gift.
Question from Martha Ferguson, parent and teacher of LD child (now 18 yrs old):
My son (18) is going to high school via an online program at home. Once he completes this, I plan to have him attend Landmark College. I feel that any price is worth helping him succeed. I hope (pray) he will be able to function fully in a regular college setting after those two to three years. My question is this, how do I know my son can handle Landmark on his own (so to speak)? I plan to be near him, while I work to earn the money required for Landmark. What emotional stress will he encounter being in an entirely different learning environment and in a part of the US he is not familiar with? Is this a common problem for these students? I tend to lean towards being overprotective; I am certain I am not the only parent of an LD student who feels this way. He has had a severe problem with depression off and on for years, he is on various medications. I would also like to discuss "how much to push" "encourage to go forward" etc. When IS too much, really too much? Thank you
Dr. Roberta Goldberg, Ph.D.:
Your son is fortunate to have such a dedicated parent. We found in our study that parents went to extraordinary lengths to gather support structures for their LD children. On the other hand, it was important for support people to hold realistic and reasonable expectations, both academically, socially and in terms of independent living. Hence you are wise to be concerned about his ability to function in the Landmark environment, especially since he has not been exposed to a regular school environment. You may want to begin by visiting Landmark with your son so that both of you can see what to expect, the degree of independent decision making he may have to learn, the amount of responsibility he will need to assume for his own study schedule, living arrangements and ’survival’ skills. Perhaps then you (and he) can assess his readiness more realistically set up a plan for reaching goals he, or both of you, may want to pursue for eventual independent living.
Dr. Sheldon Horowitz (Moderator):
The hour is up and we need to bring this LDTalk to a close.
Thank you to everyone who submitted questions and to all who joined in to follow the discussion. And special thanks to Dr. Goldberg and Dr. Higgins for sharing their expertise with us. A transcript of today's chat will be available at www.LDTalk.org very soon.
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NEXT MONTH: Please mark your calendars and join us on Wednesday, October 26, 2005 from 7-8 PM ET (4-5 PM PT, 6-7 CT) for our live chat with Alan Brue and Linda Wilmhurst, authors of a new book titled A Parent's Guide to Special Education.
Good afternoon (or evening!) and welcome to LD Talk, an online discussion devoted to topics of interest to the learning disabilities community. LD Talk is a service of the National Center for Learning Disabilities (NCLD). It’s a pleasure to welcome you to the today’s chat - Thanks for joining us!
Today’s topic is Life Success for Students with Learning Disabilities. If you haven’t already done so, please be sure to visit www.LDsuccess.org where you can find a wonderful new guide (this one for teachers) based on a longitudinal study conducted by researchers at the Frostig Center in Pasadena CA.
Joining us today are we are two of the principal researchers on this study: Dr. Roberta Goldberg and Dr. Eleanor Higgins.
Roberta J. Goldberg, Ph.D. is Director of the Consultation and Education Department, and Research Associate in the Research Department at the Frostig Center in Pasadena, California. Dr. Goldberg received her Doctorate in Developmental Psychology and School Psychology from the University of Minnesota. Her research interest is in the area of success factors for individuals with learning disabilities.
Eleanor L. Higgins, Ph.D. is Director of Research at the Frostig Center in Pasadena, California. She received her doctoral degree in anthropology with a specialty in linguistics from the University of California, Riverside. She is currently conducting longitudinal research on persons with learning disabilities in the areas of assistive and instructional technology. Dr. Higgins has published numerous articles on technology for persons with learning disabilities and on the quantitative and qualitative findings of a twenty-year follow-up study. She is a fellow of the International Academy for Research in Learning Disabilities, and a frequent presenter at national and international conferences on learning disabilities.
I am Dr. Sheldon Horowitz, Director of Professional Services at the National Center for Learning Disabilities, and I’ll be moderating today’s discussion.
To those of you who have submitted questions in advance of today’s chat, many thanks! As usual, we encourage everyone to send in questions and we’ll try to respond to those that are most closely related to our discussion topic and of the broadest interest to our audience. (If you have questions unrelated to this topic, please feel free to send them to NCLD’s Help Desk at This e-mail address is being protected from spam bots, you need JavaScript enabled to view it .)
Let's begin the discussion.
Question from Jillian, Nalpes, FL:
My son just started 6th grade. He is really smart but he seems to have tremendous trouble staying organized. His handwriting is terrible and his school papers are a mess, and at the same time, he is a gifted writer and has a wonderful imagination. He gets upset with himself when he doesn't do well on an assignment, and very often needs to be reminded to do things, even when they are part of his daily routine. I know that its only a matter of time before his teachers say something. How can I get him to take more responsibility for himself? He has so much potential and I don't want to wait until he is having real problems.
Dr. Roberta Goldberg, Ph.D.:
The first thing that comes to mind is to introduce this 6th grader to some of the assistive technology that is readily available. There are many problems you have described that may be amenable to this type of intervention. For example, you mention his handwriting is ’a mess’; perhaps a laptop computer would allow him to type out his papers, spell and grammar check them, and even organize them using computer-based graphic organizers. There is additional software that can help such as speech recognition, which would allow him to speak into a microphone and have the words converted to computer text. There is word prediction that can allow him to type just the beginning of a word, then choose from a list which word he wants. There is speech synthesis, which can read the text he has written out loud to help him proofread and/or make revisions. There is also software available that can help him keep track of assignments and organize his activities such as palm pilots, reminder watches, etc. On the low-tech end, he might try dictating into a tape recorder to ’get his ideas out,’ then transcribe and revise them later.
In working with young writers, I have found that certain important steps such as pre-planning and revision (not just proof-reading) are often skipped in the writing process. Although some writers fear that these steps impede inspiration, spontaneity or creativity, after a bit of practice, they can see the benefits in the improved finished product, such that their creativity can really shine through and be forcefully communicated to the reader. Revision can also work as a ’feedback loop’ that further improves the first draft by helping the writer anticipate common problems he/she has experienced during previous revision experiences.
Question from Vanessa H. Taylor, parent of a daughter with LD and epilepsy:
My daughter is in tenth grade. She has LD and is following an "occupational" curriculum that will allow her to obtain a high school diploma. We opted for this path because she has problems with her memory (due to her seizures)and had a difficult time with "End Of Grade" testing and computer skills testing. She would not be able to obtain a diploma if she did not pass these test even though she has always had an IEP. My question is: What are some of the avenues can she take after high school to ensure that she will be able to obtain a job, career or profession? Can you suggest any programs that we can look into? To look at my girl, there is no clue that she has developmental delays and she can perform most every day task well. Of course her epilepsy has to be considered in any choices she makes. Any suggestions would be appreciated, Thank you
Dr. Eleanor Higgins, Ph.D.:
Many of the successful adult participants in our longitudinal study told us that once they reached high school, they had more freedom to pursue their ’passionate’ interests, such as art, computers, competitive sports, cooking (look at Martha Stewart!), photography, drama, gaining experience in caring for little ones by teaching at their place of worship, babysitting, etc., rather than spend all their time trying to overcome their academic weaknesses By developing these talents and special interests, many successful adults had been able to capitalize on what they could do well, and succeed in adult employment. For example, the woman who had babysat and taught Sunday school became a play therapist! She was able to capitalize on her great social skills to develop a network of professional contacts in her field that allowed her to live her dream and actually get paid for doing what she loved!
I would do everything possible to encourage your daughter to discover and pursue her talents and passionate interests, whether it be caring for pets, gardening, designing clothes, fixing computers, opening a comic book store, the list of successful ’odd’ jobs (idiosyncratic professions?) is limited only by her imagination, really. This might be the ideal time for her to gain some experience in the field of her choice, either by paid employment or by arranging ’internships’ through your high school’s transition program, or even independently volunteer at local businesses to gain the work experience she will need to obtain employment when she is ready. I would make it a point to be meet with transition services personnel at her high school and discuss options and directions she might pursue as soon as possible so that she will be prepared for employment when she graduates.
You might also take a look at the companion ’Parent Guide to the Success Attributes,’ also on this website, for some direction in initiating conversations and exploration of her strengths at home, as well.
Thanks for your question!
Question from This e-mail address is being protected from spam bots, you need JavaScript enabled to view it :
I have readthe article "Life Success for children with Leaning Disabilities" and agree with it all. My biggest challenge is even though my child is enrolled in special education and receives some help from some very concerned teachers, there are several teachers that feel it is beyond their ability to do more than be able to provide curriculum that is required for their class. Any more such as emailing parents with assignments or concerns is considered too much work for them, while I am willing to do whatever it takes, I feel my hands are tied this way. I make a point of constantly being in touch with my sons teachers and feel they thing I am protecting him in some way. I am just trying to do what I know works with him and his learning, not trying to tell them what they are doing is wrong, but that it will probably not work with him.
Dr. Eleanor Higgins, Ph.D.:
Hi Joey:
With more special needs children being mainstreamed in school settings, this is not an uncommon problem. It sounds as though some of the your child’s teachers need some education/assistance on modifying their curriculum to accommodate the variety of needs presented by their students.
When discussing your own child with them, it might help to bring up the fact that there are many students who also need modifications if they are to master the material being presented.
When describing ’what works’ for your own child, you might bring up that there are probably more students in the class who could benefit also from trying alternative strategies as well.
Teachers in the public sector right now tell us that more is expected of them in terms of teaching to the ’standards,’ and meeting the obligations of ’No Child Left Behind.’ Remind them (gently, helpfully) that making accommodations for your child will probably benefit many others, and help many of his/her students from being ’Left Behind.’
Question from Rebecca Martin, teacher, Dayton, Ohio:
Are there one or more of the success attributes that are more important to life success than others? if so, please explain why.
Dr. Eleanor Higgins, Ph.D.:
Although we did not conduct statistical testing of the possible relationships between the attributes (antecedent/subsequent), it seemed to the authors that some of the attributes were logically related to one another in ways that suggest they may develop concurrently.
For example, it would be difficult to set ’realistic’ goals without also developing self-awareness (of strengths, weaknesses, interests, passions, idiosyncrasies) either concurrently or previous to considering setting personal goals. Similarly, actually achieving some of the goals one sets seems to involve both proactivity and perseverance, perhaps even the development of social support systems for assistance, guidance, and encouragement.
Additionally, perhaps developing a means of reducing or coping with stress seems, logically speaking, to be helpful if not necessary for the development of some of the other attributes such as social support systems, perseverance, etc.
Question from Richard P., South Bend, IN:
Our older son has a learning disability and ADHD, he has an IEP and he makes good use of accommodations such as extended time on tests and permission to resubmit written assignments with feedback so he can correct spelling and grammar. As far back as I can remember, he has had a rough start of EVERY school year because teachers are not relaying information from one grade to the next. He tries to be a good self-advocate but this process really wears him (and us!) down. My younger son is heading toward middle school and I wish there was some way to protect him from having to go through the same process. Should't the school do a better job? Is there anything we can do without seeming like we're pushy parents?
Dr. Roberta Goldberg, Ph.D.:
You might try a few of the activities suggested in the ’Proactivity’ section of the teacher guide and/or parent guide for both your sons. In my experience, most students don’t have difficulty with everything, but rather one or two courses which are particularly troublesome for them such that they may need accommodation. Perhaps as parents you could encourage them to examine their daily schedules, and anticipate which teachers they may need to speak with at the beginning of the year to discuss accommodation. Perhaps the list can be reduced to a few encounters they can manage more easily. For example, English class may be troublesome, but science, P.E., art and math can be skipped, since they do fine at these without accommodation. Also, that feeling of being ’worn down’ may be assuaged as your younger son finds more exposure in middle and high school to activities that accentuate his strengths, such as music or sports, or other passionate interests he is allowed to cultivate and at which he may excel for the first time. Many of the persons in our research study found their self-esteem and struggles to actually lessen as they proceeded through adolescence.
Question from J. James, parent, Atlanta, GA:
I know how important it is to persevere, but what can I do to keep my son from giving up? He is a smart (intelligent)boy, tries hard to study, and his teachers are doing what they can. The problem is that no matter how hard he studies, he keeps getting mediocre grades. He really is trying, and he's spending so much time on school work that he barely sees his friends anymore. The 70s and Cs are chipping away at his self-image and I'm convinced that he's already started to see himself as a failure. He's in 11th grade and at this rate I'm worried that he won't even want to think about college.
Dr. Eleanor Higgins, Ph.D.:
Many of our participants described their high school experience similarly. They did what they could to keep up, but told us a constant menu of academically challenging courses grinded them down. Many received relief and hope by branching out to pursue some of their ’passions,’ such as art, sports, gardening, pottery, or at least getting a break from the ’beating their head against the wall with the reading and writing thing’ as one participant put it. At best, they may develop skills, perhaps even a profession by following these natural proclivities and, yes, obsessions. It is sometimes difficult for educators, myself included, to realize that each child is more than just a brain sitting inside a head, but a whole person, with a body and feelings, interests, desires.
If your son begins now to discover what his passions and proclivities are, he may decide he CAN go to college...as an artist, a recreational therapist, a computer teacher, an entrepreneur. Look at Charles Schwab, or the fellow who founded Kinko’s. Both struggled with LD throughout their schooling. (For more celebs with LD, and lots of other interesting stuff for young people with LD, visit sparktop.com) You might try to assist him in finding what he truly enjoys doing, and making a career out of that...even video games. I have a cousin who was hooked on them, then invented one, and is now a millionaire!
Question from James K:
I was diagnosed with dyslexia in the 4th grade and during my senior year of college. I am currently an attorney with the federal government. One of my big issues is when I am dealing listening to someone recite a complicated problem I automatically (not sure how else to describe it) turn off processing visual data. That is to say my eyes stay open but nothing is registering. While this helps me with understanding the oration, people sometimes think that I am not paying attention to what they are say (I will admit I probably look like I am day dreaming). Do you have any advice, beyond alerting the other party of what I am doing, as to how I can better interact during these types of situations?
Dr. Roberta Goldberg, Ph.D.:
HI James:
thanks for your question.
Yes, there is that social expectation that you look at the person who is talking. Just off the top of my head, you could try fixing your gaze at a blank spot on their face (e.g., their forehead just above their eyes, so it ’looks like’ you are listening. Another approach would be to explain your behavior in apologetic terms. (e.g., ’I find it easier to figure out a problem when I am staring into space; believe me, I’m not inattentive as I may appear to be. It’s just the way I concentrate best.’)
It would seem best to keep explanations brief, however. You might try practicing one or two strategies with a friend first, to see how it ’goes over,’ i.e., have him give you his impression of your attempt or strategy. Keep trying a few approaches until you find one that ’works’ for you.
Question from Gerardo Aguayo, Parent:
It has been suggested to me that Behavoir Modification Programs (Wilderness Camps ) and Therapeutic Boarding Schools have succes in helping children with ADHD or other LD's What is your opinion in regard of this programs, and if you possible can suggest other options instead. Thank you
Dr. Roberta Goldberg, Ph.D.:
I think of behavior modification programs as quite different from wilderness camp experiences. Behavior modification, as I understand it, attempts to modify troublesome behaviors, or encourage desirable ones, by using positive or negative concrete and/or at a later time, social reinforcement. In other words, concrete rewards, such as candy, tokens for prizes, etc. are handed out for desirable behavior, such as finishing an assignment. By manipulating the schedule of reinforcement (e.g., starting with a concrete reward such as a piece of candy every time the desired behavior occurs to partial or intermittent reinforcement) and toward social rather than concrete reinforcers (such as a ’good job’ comment or a smile from the teacher) rather than concrete rewards each time the behavior is performed. My understanding of wilderness camp experiences is that children are placed in situations that are designed to develop social skills (such as trust of others, reciprocity, cooperation, etc.) and improved self-esteem (self-reliance, self-trust, exploration of strengths, physical endurance, social competence, and emotional stability in the face of crisis) in a more indirect and realistic situation than the typical classroom setting. As to therapeutic boarding schools, I know that they differ quite dramatically in their ideas of ’therapy’ so it is difficult to comment on them as a whole.
I would suggest in the selection of any of these treatment options that you visit the facility and observe teachers and counselors interacting with children in classrooms, dormitories, and other daily activities. I would take it as an ominous sign if the facility discourages visits or parental involvement in treatment while it is being conducted. Talk to the kids as well and see what they have to say about their experiences, and bring your child so that he can ask questions as well.
It is also important to determine what kind of assistance your child actually needs. Other options are available for children with ADHD and/or LD. Special education programs are offered by most public school districts, and many private (day) schools exist that specialize in assisting this population. With ADHD, medication is a treatment option, and with LD, an educational (remedial) intervention seems more appropriate as a first step (such as after school tutoring, special commercial programs designed to address academic deficits if no other social or behavioral problems are severely hampering your child’s development). Also, working on fostering the success attributes discussed in the website is an additional path that could be pursued! There is actual research to support the efficacy of helping your child develop these traits!
Please note, when you go to our website for teachers, that we also have available on the same website, a guide for parents of children with LD to foster the development of the success attributes. This guide is completely accessible, and can be downloaded FOR FREE. You can also order a printed copy of the Parent Guide for $5.00 per copy from us.
Question from Laura Kaloi, Public Policy Director, NCLD:
Parents that contact NCLD are often looking for distinct answers about how to help their child (especially teenagers) complete High School and go to college. Understanding that each child is unique, are there any specific strategies that apply to most students who have successfully graduated and gone on to gain post secondary education and have careers?
Dr. Eleanor Higgins, Ph.D.:
Hi Laura:
Thanks for your question.
About half of our successful adults completed college, although perhaps not in 4 years (perseverance)!
Even more got most of the way there before transitioning to an employment setting. The way they told us they accomplished this was to locate a college that had support services for persons with disabilities that included a substantial LD component (proactivity); they took lighter class loads(self-awareness); they spoke with their professors beforehand to ensure they could get the accommodations they needed (more proactivity); they sought social support from their peers and their family (use of social support systems).
They learned to use technology that would help them compensate for shortcomings (tape recording lectures, speech recognition, dictating essays and papers that could be transcribed later, using speech synthesis, books on tape).
They worked twice as hard at studying than the other students (realistic goal-setting), without complaint. In other words, they practiced many of the success attributes! With one or two exceptions, they were able to parlay their education into successful careers, although perhaps not ’mainline’ professions such as medicine or law. We had a clothing designer, a child therapist, an independent computer consultant, a retail clothing manager, the owner of a computer company, a docent at the observatory, a real estate broker, a potter and art instructor, a paramedic, a greeting card producer, a music video director, a funeral director, an accountant, a car salesman, a film location scout ... the list goes on.
Question from Donna, parent:
My daughter is very bright but has significant NVLD and central auditory processing issues. One of the real struggles I have as a parent are the low academic standards being set for her in her school settings. I have been specific in my requests to have her challenged academically, and it doesn't seem to happen. How do I as a parent, effectively measure how much she can accomplish, and how do I drive higher expectations for her at school? I feel as though she is one of the children being left behind...
Dr. Eleanor Higgins, Ph.D.:
Dear Donna:
It sounds as though you have already tried to work and/or communicate your concerns with instructors, to no avail. Perhaps you might begin to do some ’homework ’with your daughter to:
(1) explore here academic capabilities by giving her short assignments you think she should be able to do, and observe the results. Then adjust the assignment, making it easier, harder, until you find her level, and then begin to challenge her a little.
(2) Help her with encouraging words, ’good job’, ’nice try’ so you can raise her confidence and eventually her expectations for herself.
(3) Explore her areas of passionate interest, talent and perhaps (as yet) undeveloped expertise. As to ’..how do I drive higher expectations for her at school?’ You might begin to meet with teachers, bring some of the products she has produced in your exploratory work, to alter their perceptions of her current academic skill levels. But I would not expect their instantly altering their expectations for her. Changing their expectations may be more challenging than changing hers for herself!
Question from Mary Arellano, grandmother & foster parent:
Can you give me information that I can share with teachers on working effectively with students with ADHD/ADD...my grandson has been diagnosed with ADHD (he is a 6th grader). My daugher-in-law & I do not feel the teachers have the training needed to work this child. My foster son has ADD & is a senior in high school who seems to have been pushed thru the system and I am concerned that he will get in trouble as he often does and not graduate. We are working on a behavior plan for him but the school is not challenging him to learn, they seem to have given up on him. Both of these children attend a small rural school.
Dr. Roberta Goldberg, Ph.D.:
You might refer the 6th grade teacher to the NCLD website at www.LD.org to gain knowledge and resources for children with ADD and ADHD. She can also try examining our curriculum in the Teacher Guide of the Success Attributes on ldsuccess.org for activities and resources for coping with LD and ADHD issues in academic settings and in later life. Also since you seem to know quite a bit about ADD yourself, you might want to share with her interventions to increase attention, perseverance, and everyday activities, as well as to master the management his own self-advocacy activity. For the high school student, you may want to investigate a new book by Edward M. Hollowell entitled, "Delivered from Distraction", published by Ballantine Books in 2005. He shares wonderful anecdotes about students with ADD and the challenges they face in school and in their adult lives. He offers strategies for both parents and students to compensate for organizational and attentional issues. These might add new life to his behavior plan and his teacher's attitude about him. Perhaps she will be motivated to seek more information that may assist your student, as well as others with similar difficulties.
Question from Daniel, parent in NY:
My friend has a 9th grader who has central auditory processing issues and who, despite lots of support in school and at home, continues to be reluctant to 'take charge' in school. Is there something unique about this problem that makes it more difficult for him to self-advocate? Is it possible that he's just not mature enough to connect with his teachers and figure out a way to stay up to date with his studies? His parents are very concerned, frequently in touch with school personnel, and always available to help at home. Any suggestions?
Dr. Eleanor Higgins, Ph.D.:
I am not sure what ’central auditory processing issues’ are, in terms of what academic difficulties this 9th grader may exhibit. Does he have difficulty hearing speech sounds, understanding speech, speaking, reading, spelling, writing, sounding out words, computing, understanding math concepts? Without knowing to what the term refers, it is difficult to answer the question of whether there is something unique about it that makes it more difficult for him to self-advocate. However, in my experience, children who have had failure experiences can suffer from embarrassment and in many cases harassment from fellow students and even inadvertently instructors. They can be more likely to get discouraged, ’hide out’ in class, not draw attention to themselves, feel ashamed, and behave passively to avoid ridicule. This would appear to be a ’natural’ kind of defense against such emotional pain. They may need special attention and encouragement to try other positive and assertive solutions
It sounds as if he is receiving good support and encouragement from parents, however. They may want to take a look at the Success Attribute Guide for Parents, also on this website ldsuccess.org. It is completely accessible and downloadable, and a hard copy can be purchased from the website as well for $5. This may assist them in providing experiences that will help their son become more self-aware, proactive, accepting of social support, etc., regardless of his academic difficulties. Parents could also direct teachers and school personnel to the Teacher’s Guide for developing some of these traits in their students who struggle with independence, self-advocacy, etc.
Question from Dr. Sheldon Horowitz:
The Life Success guides specifically mention the importance of students knowing the law and what entitlements and protections it provides. Could you share what you would consider to be the 1 or 2 most important details of the law that students should know about and be able to articulate at different points in their schooling, and perhaps give a few examples?
Dr. Roberta Goldberg, Ph.D.:
Hi Sheldon:
Thanks for your question. it is an important one!
I would make sure a student knew he/she was entitled to ’reasonable accommodation’ and would role play situations with him or her that will probably come up in school, and employment settings. For example, a student with LD has the right to request more time on a test, a different (quieter?) setting, assistive technology such as tape recorders, computers, books on tape, etc. In the job setting you may role play situations that come up such as telling an employer he/she will need to run written work by someone for proofreading, will require more time to double check math calculations, etc., need to tape record meetings so he/she won’t miss important information or the details of task assignments.
Of course, before a student or employee can ask for accommodation, they must ’self-disclose’ the exact nature of their learning disability. This is not always an easy thing to do or learn. The details of how he/she portrays the difficulties is very important to their feeling comfortable asking for accommodations. This self-disclosure should also be practiced by role-playing with various friends, family members, and obtaining feedback from them on how he/she came across. It is helpful to specify what tasks and activities he/she will have difficulty with, rather than use too much LD jargon, expecting the employer or instructor to understand these often obscure terms. In other words, ’I need extra time to read reports,’ is clearer to an employer than, ’I have phonological processing problems while decoding.’
Question from Stephen H., educator, Port Jervis, PA:
How effective is "coaching" in helping students with LD to become more successful? And how about for adults? There are lots of people advertising their services as coaches, and while I've heard about job coaching, I'm not sure if and how it would benefit someone with LD.
Dr. Roberta Goldberg, Ph.D.:
Hi Stephen:
Thanks for your question.
I’m not entirely sure what these ’coaches’ do, or charge, but I don’t see why a parent, teacher or even another person with LD couldn't do such coaching.
In the Teacher Guide there are many suggested activities, and in the Parent Guide there are general guidelines for teaching the successful strategies we discovered through our 20-year longitudinal research on successful persons with LD.
Question from B. Greene, Albany, NY:
My daughter is very quiet, a terrific artist, and barely making it through high school. Her teachers think she has lots of potential and are encouraging her to apply to college as an art major. She, on the other hand, only wishes she was smarter and able to compete academically. She has both learning disabilities and ADHD, but I think it's her low self-esteem that will ultimately hold her back. I wish I knew what to do to get her excited about her future. Any suggestions?
Dr. Eleanor Higgins, Ph.D.:
Thanks for your question.
We have a number of students at Frostig who struggled academically but excelled at art. One is currently in an art institute, practicing photography. She benefitted from our Success Attributes program while here where learned to understand the differences in her ability in art as opposed to academics.
In the Parent Guide, also on this website, there are some suggestions for parents to help their children consider their strengths and weaknesses, and take these into consideration in ’finding their niche.’ We also heard from our participants that pursuing their passions, like art, sustained them through their difficulties struggling with academics.
We are considering your concerns about assisting her with building self-esteem. From our experience with the above student, we found that her formal 4-year art institute was a rather ’critical’ environment (i.e. critiquing her art) to which she transitioned from our supportive, (protective?) environment. She may have benefitted from a semester or two at the local community college, with some support from the Office of Disabled Students, such as counselling, tutoring assistance, use of a high-tech assistive technology center, and friends! jShe might also benefit from working with younger children in the area of art to gain confidence in her abilities.
Dr. Sheldon Horowitz (Moderator):
For additional information and resources about ADHD, a few helpful Web sites are: 1. Children and Adults with Attention Deficit Disorder (www.chadd.org) 2. The National Resource Center on ADHD (www.help4adhd.org) 3. Attention Deficit Disorder Association (www.add.org)(note: focus is primarily is on adults) 4. There is also an easy-to-understand booklet published by the National Institute for Mental Heath on ADHD (http://www.nimh.nih.gov/publicat/adhd.cfm)
Question from Denise Sailstad, parent of two college children with Learning Disabilities, Durham, NC:
Just a short comment: As a parent that has survived a multitude of aspects (emotionally, physically, financially) to look at my children now is an awesome experience. Reviewing the points that you indicate as important for success was so reassuring! But, please discuss the level of commitment and perservance and external support that parents NEED to assist their children. Also, even as they approach adulthood, we have done so by keeping our sense of humor and realize that every step along the way (yes, even when they are 20 and 22) you are continuing to teach them by example, expectation and loving support that you believe in them! Also, the amount of energy and resources that it takes can leave upper -middle income parents with little resources to pay for the type of college suited for LD children. We took each year as it came (day actually), spending funds on enrichment, tutors, developmental experts, psychologists, etc... this left no savings for the college fund as parents without LD children have... In a sense, we, as parents get a sense that our children face every day... life isn't always fair! And, we just do the best that we can and are thankful for what we DO have!
Dr. Roberta Goldberg, Ph.D.:
Denise:
Thanks for sharing your wisdom with us!
I would like to share with you, that virtually every adult participant in our study brought up the appreciation they felt for their parents’ labor and sacrifice during childhood and adolescent years. Here at the Frostig Center, we see these daily as we observe parents go the extra mile to ensure that their child gets what they need in the way of academic, emotional and social support. The hours spent at the kitchen table pouring over puzzling lessons, the shuttling between tutoring, special day programs, in addition to the soccer practice, ballet lessons, and school events that enrich their children’s lives and chances for success, is mind boggling to us. Please know that your children, if they are anything like the adults we interviewed, are keenly aware of and grateful for your efforts. Here is a quote from one of our successful adult informants:
’My parents didn’t go to Europe every year like the other families here. They spent their money making sure my brother and I got a decent education. That’s what they cared about, and I know now how hard that must have been for them.’
Question from Jacquelyn Gaiters-Jordan, Instructor, Pikes Peak Community College, Colorado Spings, CO:
As a Developmental Educator at a community college, I often have non-traditional aged students (usually over age 27) that have undiagnosed learning disabilities. I sometimes feel ill-equipped to assist these students. How can I how help these students succeed & how can advise students when college may not be the best choice for them?
Dr. Roberta Goldberg, Ph.D.:
First, I would direct them to the your office of disabled student services (ODS) to be diagnosed, or identified so that they can qualify for assistance from the ODSS. Assistance may include provision of assistive technology, tutoring, test accommodation, and a myriad of other services.
In addition, as an instructor, you may want to discuss accommodations they (or you) might make informally in your particular class that may help them. Such things as having a capable student put a piece of carbon paper under their class notes and giving a copy to the struggling student is an example of one simple solution that can be enormously helpful. Contact your ODSS for more suggestions.
In terms of advising students as to whether they should remain in college, I would first suggest that they try to make as many accommodations as they can and avail themselves of special services, before counseling them that college is not for them. You would be surprised at the great benefits being in a college environment can bring to a person with a disability, beyond the subject matter of particular classes or a paper degree. They can acquire life-long survival skills, friendships, social life, and confidence in their ability to overcome obstacles.
Many students are so deeply motivated to succeed or pursue their passionate interests, that they may surprise you at what they can accomplish, even academically. Anything you can do to help them not give up on themselves is a great gift.
Question from Mary Kobane, Professor/Learning Disabilities Specialist; Santa Ana College:
I work at a community college with adults with learning disabilities. This year, while on sabbatical leave, I am working on a project on transitioning high school students with LD to college and providing other post-secondary options to students who do not have the cognitive skills to succeed in college. One of our largest problems is inappropriate referrals from the K-12 districts. When former "special day class" students are referred, they will almost certainly fail because they have never experienced the rigor of a mainstream high school course. I think that part of an overall attitude that "students must attend college or they are losers," and also less vocational classes/opportunities for all students. I have lots of ideas but would like to know if this seems to be a common problem across the country.
Dr. Eleanor Higgins, Ph.D.:
First, it is our understanding that in California we have mandated transition programs for all special education students, including LD students. I am unclear about the population you are serving, since it is also my understanding that most LD students are dual enrolled or mainstreamed in general education classes, and most certainly in high school. They should be receiving transition assistance long before they graduate and arrive at your college. I would inquire with the Special Education programs at your feeder high school districts to see what preparation these students may have had.
Further, if they do in fact receive transition services they should already be aware of services provided by local community colleges. If they do not have this information when they arrive, perhaps posting bulletins or posters in prominently visited places such as the bookstore, library will announce to them that you have services already established.
In terms of advising students as to whether they should remain in college, I would first suggest that they try to make as many accommodations as they can and avail themselves of special services, before counseling them that college is not for them. You would be surprised at the great benefits being in a college environment can bring to a person with a disability, beyond the subject matter of particular classes or a paper degree. They can acquire life-long survival skills, friendships, social life, and confidence in their ability to overcome obstacles. Many students are so deeply motivated to succeed or pursue their passionate interests, that they may surprise you at what they can accomplish, even academically. Anything you can do to help them not give up on themselves is a great gift.
Question from Martha Ferguson, parent and teacher of LD child (now 18 yrs old):
My son (18) is going to high school via an online program at home. Once he completes this, I plan to have him attend Landmark College. I feel that any price is worth helping him succeed. I hope (pray) he will be able to function fully in a regular college setting after those two to three years. My question is this, how do I know my son can handle Landmark on his own (so to speak)? I plan to be near him, while I work to earn the money required for Landmark. What emotional stress will he encounter being in an entirely different learning environment and in a part of the US he is not familiar with? Is this a common problem for these students? I tend to lean towards being overprotective; I am certain I am not the only parent of an LD student who feels this way. He has had a severe problem with depression off and on for years, he is on various medications. I would also like to discuss "how much to push" "encourage to go forward" etc. When IS too much, really too much? Thank you
Dr. Roberta Goldberg, Ph.D.:
Your son is fortunate to have such a dedicated parent. We found in our study that parents went to extraordinary lengths to gather support structures for their LD children. On the other hand, it was important for support people to hold realistic and reasonable expectations, both academically, socially and in terms of independent living. Hence you are wise to be concerned about his ability to function in the Landmark environment, especially since he has not been exposed to a regular school environment. You may want to begin by visiting Landmark with your son so that both of you can see what to expect, the degree of independent decision making he may have to learn, the amount of responsibility he will need to assume for his own study schedule, living arrangements and ’survival’ skills. Perhaps then you (and he) can assess his readiness more realistically set up a plan for reaching goals he, or both of you, may want to pursue for eventual independent living.
Dr. Sheldon Horowitz (Moderator):
The hour is up and we need to bring this LDTalk to a close.
Thank you to everyone who submitted questions and to all who joined in to follow the discussion. And special thanks to Dr. Goldberg and Dr. Higgins for sharing their expertise with us. A transcript of today's chat will be available at www.LDTalk.org very soon.
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