Dr. Sheldon Horowitz (Moderator):
Good evening and welcome to LD Talk, the Web's only online discussion devoted to topics of interest to the learning disabilities community.
LD Talk is a service of the National Center for Learning Disabilities (NCLD). Funding for LD Talk is generously provided by SchwabLearning.org.
It's a pleasure to welcome you all to tonight's chat - Thanks for joining us!
And it is a pleasure to welcome Rick Lavoie as our featured guest. Rick is a nationally-recognized expert in the area of social-emotional development and its impact on children with LD. We're thrilled to have Rick Lavoie with us to answer your questions.
Richard Lavoie, M.A., M.Ed. has served as an administrator of residential programs for children with special needs since 1972. He holds three degrees in Special Education and has served as an adjunct professor or visiting lecturer at numerous universities including Syracuse, Harvard, Gallaudet, Manhattanville College, University of Alabama and Georgetown.
Rick is probably best known for his videos "How Difficult Can This Be?: The F.A.T. City Workshop" and "Last One Picked, First One Picked On: The Social Implications of Learning Disabilities".
Rick's newest resource is "It's So Much Work to Be Your Friend : Helping the Child with Learning Disabilities Find Social Success," his insightful guidebook to helping children with learning disabilities overcome social skill deficits.
I am Dr. Sheldon Horowitz, Director of Professional Services at the National Center for Learning Disabilities, and I'll be the moderator of today�s discussion.
To those of you who have submitted questions in advance of tonight's chat, many thanks! As usual, we encourage everyone to send in questions and we'll try to respond to those that are most closely related to our discussion topic and of the broadest interest to our audience. (If you have questions unrelated to this topic, please feel free to send them to NCLD's Help Desk at This e-mail address is being protected from spam bots, you need JavaScript enabled to view it )
Let's now begin the discussion.
Question from James Dunderman, Learning Disabilities Teacher Consultant:
Thanks for your work. It teaches about the true nature of Learning Disabilities. Your F.A.T. City workshop was a very helpful part of that process. The lack of nuance in their social skills abilities causes some LD adolescents to appear surly and indifferent. This causes a cycle of conflict with authority figures that unfortunately lands some in the criminal justice system. They then don't know how to present themselves clearly before a judge and can be reprimanded more harshly. Are there any suggestions to remedy this situation for the students and those in positions of authority?
Richard Lavoie, M.A., M.Ed.:
Thanks for your kind words, James.
The link between LD and delinquency is undeniable. These kids are presented with a "Strike One, Strike Two, Strike Three" in regard to this link.
Strike One: They are more likely to get involved in crime because they can't get gainful jobs.
Strike Two: They are more likely to get caught for their crime because they plan and implement poorly.
Strike Three: They are more likely to receive stiffer punishments because of their inability to handle judicial proceeding appropriately.
There is a chapter in my book, "It's So Much Work to Be Your Friend: Helping the Child with Learning Disabilities Find Social Success," about paralinguistics or nonverbal language. Many kids with LD have difficulty in an area known as VOCALICS. They do not understand how the tone of their voice can completely change the message.
For example, suppose my brother said to me: "Your new car looks great. I'm going to take it for a drive."
I respond, "Try it!"
Depending on my tone of voice I am either INVITING or FORBIDDING him from driving the car!
Because kids with language problems don't understand this, they often are very sarcastic and contentious with authority figures...EVEN THOUGH THEY DON'T MEAN TO BE. This can cause havoc when being interviewed by police or court personnel.
Kids need very deliberate coaching when entering such an interview and the authority figure needs to understand that the child's behavior may be unintentional.
In the ASK RICK archives on LDOnline I wrote an essay for police personnel on the "care and feeding" of suspects with LD.
Question from Linda,parent OJR school District:
My 11 year old son is diagnosed with ADD.My husband and I both see him act very differently ( nervous & uncomfortable)in social situations,like scouts and school events. How can we help him to be more like himself and feel comfortable in these situations?
Richard Lavoie, M.A., M.Ed.:
Hello, Linda. You need to convince your son that the behaviors that he uses at home that make him a desirable and appealing social partner will also work at school. Give him lots of praise and positive reinforcement when he acts appropriately and encourage him to replicate that behavior in public events. We need to understand that public situations are extraordinarily difficult for ADD kids because of their problems with transitions and dealing with new situations. He needs a great deal of preparation before entering a new situation. By coaching him and letting him know what the expectations for the situation will be, he is more likely to handle it appropriately. It is also a good idea to inform the group leader of your son's problems and provide some suggestions that will be helpful in controlling the boy's behavior.
Question from Carla Owens, Support Group Leader, Northwest Arkansas Tourette Syndrome Support Group:
Mr. Lavoie, Our support group has watched two of your videos and have found that you have given us a valuable insight to the social aspects of Tourette Syndrome - Thank you. My question is: As you may know, Tourette Syndrome children/adults have motor/vocal tics, ADHD/ADD, and usually OCD and learning disabilities. Since I have been involved with TS (10 years) I have seen that the social problems don't really become a problem until adolescents (when the Tourettes usually worsens) - Between puberty, teenagerhood, and as TS becoming more of an issue at this time - How can you help them "see" their social problems so they can have a meaningful relationship with a peer (who is usually 2-3 years ahead in the maturity department)?
Richard Lavoie, M.A., M.Ed.:
Thanks for your generous words. In the mid 1970's I had a child in my class with bizarre and inexplicable behaviors. We tried every imaginable strategy to "get him to behave" - with a heavy emphasis on punishment. Several years later, when I learned about TS, I realized that he was a classic TS child. I have always regretted our misdiagnosis and, ever since, have had a passion for educating teachers about this puzzling disorder. I commend you and your group for your good work.
I would suggest there is an additional variable that is contributing to the rejection of a child with TS during adolescence...the nature of adolescence itself! Adolescence is the only period in the lifespan in which anything or anyone that is "different" is automatically suspect. Little kids are fascinated by "different things". Adults are intrigued by "differences". But adolescents automatically reject and/or isolate anything or anyone that does not comply with the norm!
You are wise to prepare your pre-adolescent for his entrance into his adolescent years. You and/or a counsellor should provide him with advice on how to initiate friendships (and maintain them!). He must also develop some degree of "acceptance" of his disorder. Provide him with structured, supportive (and monitored!) opportunities to interact with peers in order to assist him in developing the necessary social skills.
Many parents and professionals have told me that the "Social Skill Autopsy" strategy outlined in my book has been very effective with the child with Tourettes.
Adolescence is often the most difficult and challenging period in the lifespan of a person with a neurological disorder. The normal angst and pain of adolescence is compounded by the complication of their disability. These kids need our support, sensitivity and understanding.
Question from B Williams, parent:
What strategies, supports or resources do you recommend for a preschooler with social skills challenges who is at-risk for LD's based on family history and diagnosed ADHD?
Richard Lavoie, M.A., M.Ed.:
You will want to keep in very close contact with the child's teachers and pediatrician and keep an eye out for the telltale symptoms that a child may manifest. Most LD websites provide a list of these symptoms. Convert these lists into a checklist and carefully monitor the boy's progress and performance. As the Boys Scouts say, "Always be prepared".
Question from Beth Karon Goldberg, Sp. Ed. Attorney:
Should schools be asked to provide training in social skills for children with learning disabilities even if the area of social skills is not the major area of impact of the disability?
Richard Lavoie, M.A., M.Ed.:
Yes. Schools need to be willing and able to deal with "the whole child" and work to foster all areas of his development...academic, cognitive and social.
I encourage teachers to teach the FOUR R's: Reading, 'Riting, 'Rithmetic...and relationships
Question from Patti Hinton, Special Education Teacher, Ft. Thomas Elementary.:
Over the years all of my SLD boy students; all of them, without exception, have appeared to be extremely immature. Most, but not all have been impulsive. Many have been highly energetic. Some have been lethargic. But all (from age 6 to 13) have had the primary impulse to "play" at any given moment. Any object can and will be made into a toy. Every free moment, and every not-so-free moment, turns into shoot-em-up, zooming cars, wrestling, superhero, etc... In addition they are years behind their peers at reaching social developmental stages. My question is... Is the appearance of immaturity a symptom or a byproduct of a learning disability?
Richard Lavoie, M.A., M.Ed.:
Patti, your observation doesn't surprise me. In the 1980's, kids with LD were often referred to as "developmentally delayed." There is a degree of immaturity during LD kids due to their neurologically based difficulties. Socially, this causes difficulty because a 12 year old with 7 year old social competencies will attempt to make friends with other 12 year olds by using strategies generally used by 7 year olds (attracting potential friends by bringing toys to school).
Your student's tendency to act out or misbehavior with minimal provocation or cause is probably due to their impulsivity and their understandable desire to avoid the challenging academic tasks that your are requiring of them. So, in answer to your question, this behavior is both a symptom AND a byproduct of their learning problems.
The primary need of all human beings is to be liked and accepted by other human beings. These kids want to be liked by others. If you have a good relationship with these kids, you may want to have a serious, supportive, sensitive talk with them about their behavior.
I don't generally recommend comparing kids to one another, but you might try something like this: "Guys, I really enjoy you and I want to give you some advice. Your constant playing, disrupting and wrestling are behaviors that you generally see with younger kids. Most kids your age are able to work on projects for an hour or two at a time without fooling around. We need to begin to change your behavior so - when you go into other classes - the kids will accept and welcome you. Let's begin to record and chart the intervals between disruptions and let's work together to see if we can continually increase the time between disruptions."
I don't mean to get sexist here, but...another problem is that many adolescents have no male role models in their lives. As a result, they haven't had the opportunity to see men interact with one another. Maybe a male teacher or counsellor could get together with your guys and tell them that men do not interact and communicate via noogies, headlocks and fake shootouts. He could encourage the boys to interact in a more mature manner. Worth a shot!
Question from Virginia Roesell, adult with learning disabilities:
Hi. I am a 38 year old wife and mother who has learning disabilities. I would be most interested, for myself and my husband, as to how these social skill problems play out in my situation and in the lives of other adults with LD, in your experience. It seems most of what I see online about LD is just about children, and while that is important, it is just as important to help adults with learning disabilities, as it is not a condition one grows out of. Thank you so much.
Richard Lavoie, M.A., M.Ed.:
"Yes, Virginia, there ARE social competence problems with adults with LD."
True language/learning disabilities are neurologically-based and the neurological system in the human body is the only system that cannot repair itself. Therefore, the child with learning disabilities is destined to become and adult with a learning disability. It simply does not go away.
When the LD child grows up, he often finds the world a puzzling and confusing place. He is doubly burdened because he had minimal opportunities to practice his social skills as a child because he was rejected and isolated at school and in the community.
Fortunately, there are some terrific resources available for adults who wish to improve their social skills Among them:
"You Mean I'm Not Lazy, Stupid or Crazy?"" by Kate Kelly
"What Does Everyone Know that I Don't Know" by Michelle Novotni
"ADD in Adults" by L. Weiss
"Add Through the Life Span" by Paul Wender
Question from Richard Roux, Parent:
Rick, We have a daughter 12 in PA public school with an IEP. She receives social skills education once per week. She knows many of the expected social skills but can't seem to build the discipline to apply it in social situations. Simple things like saying hello or smiling are often left out when a greeting situation presents itself. Any suggestions? Thanks, Rich
Richard Lavoie, M.A., M.Ed.:
Happy Holiday, Rich!
Your daughter would benefit from an approach championed by Syracuse University's Arnold Goldstein. In order to foster the generalization of targeted social skills, he recommends assigning "social homework".
It goes like this:
"Kelly, today we learned that, when waiting in line at a store, you should move up as the line moves up and get your money ready. Now, sometime this week, I want you to use that skill and report back to me."
This strategy encourages and requires kids to look for opportunities to use their newly acquired social skills.
This really works!
You may also want to establish a signal system with your daughter wherein you give her a pre-arranged, secret signal when she is making a social error. ("Melissa, when you get excited, you often raise your voice and get really loud. When you do this, I will get your attention and wink at you. That's your signal to lower your volume a bit.").
Question from Allen Regar, Learning Specialist, All Kinds of Minds:
Rick,
While there exist many ways for students with special needs to receive interventions and accomodations in the classroom, much student interaction and experience occurs outside the classroom: in the halls, the lunchroom, during recess, and after school. These are critical social times that kids with language, attention, and other other challenges may come to dread. How do we as educators encourage and help to create a culture of acceptance and respect during these times?
Richard Lavoie, M.A., M.Ed.:
Allen, best wishes to all of my friends at All Kinds of Minds! You guys are the best!
The average kid spends 1000 hours a year in the classroom. This comprises less than 20% of his waking hours! The remaining 80% of his time is spent in school hallways, the cafeteria, recess, the bus, Grandma's house, the mall and the neighborhood.
There are lots of strategies to increase the acceptance of these kids, but the most important (and effective) technique is rooted in the behavior and attitude of the ADULT in the situation. If the coach, teacher or group leader consistently demonstrates her acceptance of and affection for the isolated/rejected kid, the other kids are far more likely to accept the child.
Conversely, if the adult displays his frustration and rejection of the kid, the others will follow suit. My book contains several strategies designed to prepare the LD child for these social situations.
Question from Wendy Ericsson, parent:
Are social skills programs worthwhile in terms of enabling children to succeed in social situations outside of the social skills groups? Or are they a big waste of money?
Richard Lavoie, M.A., M.Ed.:
Wendy, you have asked me to enter the lion's den! Professionals are deeply divided on this issue. Some professionals feel that Social Skill Groups are THE ANSWER to fostering social competence. However, some professionals feel that groups are largely ineffective.
Well...here goes! I agree with the second group! I feel that it is generally ineffective to take a group of socially inappropriate kids and bring them together on a Saturday morning to discuss social skills! This approach is unlikely to HURT anyone...but it's not likely to HELP very much, either.
You see, these kids simply don't learn in a clinical and contrived setting. They need to learn in a more natural and "real" environment. I often tell parents "If you want to teach your kid how to eat in a restaurant, don't set up a faux restaurant in your kitchen to rehearse these skills...TAKE HIM TO A RESTAURANT. If you want to teach him how to stand in a line properly...take him to the bank."
I find that the skills that are "learned" in these Social Skill Groups seldom generalize to other settings. Further, when given Social Scenarios in these groups ("What would you do if you were the only kid in class who was not invited to a birthday party?"), they can generally give you an appropriate response. But when they get in the rough-and-tumble social environment of the playground or the school bus, their impulsivity and disinhibition will generally cause them to make a social error.
Now that I have alienated all the counsellors and therapists who conduct Social Groups for a living, let me say that Groups are not a "waste of money"...but they aren't THE ANSWER either. These groups must be supplemented with sensitive interventions, autopsies and ongoing counseling.
By the way, I make a differentiation between SOCIAL SKILL GROUPS and SOCIAL GROUPS. The former are designed to directly teach social skills. The latter are designed to give special needs kids an opportunity to hang out, go bowling,etc.....basically, to meet other kids and to make memories. I LOVE these groups!!
Question from Susan Burns, Parent:
I drive as part of a carpool taking three 9 to 11 year old girls to their special school for children with language and learning disabilities (20 minute drive). We have had ongoing difficulties especially in the afternoon (seems like girls get tired after school day; ADD meds are wearing off, etc). Seems like the girls have a difficult time being friends with more than 1 child at a time - then one feels left out, picked on. We have ground rules in terms of behavior but still feelings get hurt. Any hints? Thanks, Susan
Richard Lavoie, M.A., M.Ed.:
Invariably, when you put 3 kids together, it becomes a 2 against 1 situation. In my book "It's So Much Work to Be Your Friend: Helping the Child with Learning Disabilities Find Social Success" I recommend against inviting two kids over for a playdate because you run the risk of the two visitors ganging up on your kid. Not a good idea.
How about this? Let two kids sit in back and converse while - on a rotating basis - one girl gets to sit in front with you...she can control the radio and talk with you. At times, the four of you will be involved in the same conversation. At other times, there will be two parallel conversations occurring simultaneously...sitting in front will be viewed as a treat because she will get individualized attention from you.
Your involvement becomes more intense so you can guide and "referee" as needed.
Give it a try!!
Question from Phyllis Cohen, Parent:
My 17 year old Asperger son, will be graduating from a therapeutic school in St. Louis this spring. Is a residential college better for someone like my son, who has difficulty in socializing? His biggest deficit is socialization with peers.
Richard Lavoie, M.A., M.Ed.:
Phyllis, That's a tough one mainly because I don't have a lot of information about your son. Perhaps you should contact an Educational Consultant. However, we all know that the social environment in a college can be a tremendous challenge for ANY kid. Nearly 25% of college freshmen have significant social difficulty. It sounds as if your son has enjoyed real success in his St. Louis school...you don't want to endanger that progress by placing him in an environment where he might fail. I don't envy you this decision. Small kids...small problems. Big kids...big problems.
Question from Teresa Bueti, Children's Librarian, Chappaqua Library:
Parents ask whether the social advantage (sharing, belonging) of owning/playing video games outweighs any isolating aspects. E.g. does playing a video game eith a peer help a shy/socially awkward child fit in more easily?
Richard Lavoie, M.A., M.Ed.:
Good question, Teresa...and a controversial one.
I regret that, for today's kids, the traditonal board games (Monopoly, Clue, etc.) have been replaced by the XBox, Nintendo and Sega. In order to play a board game with a few other kids, the child had to learn, master and use countless social skills (turn taking, sharing, following rules, waiting your turn, gracious winning, gracious losing, etc.). These activities provided kids with a social laboratory wherein they could use and practice these crucial skills.
Computer games are often solitary. Even when two kids play a game together they seldom converse or interact.
I long for the days before playdates and organized sports when kids simply interacted and "hung out"! We all learned our social skills in those settings.
A parent once told me, "Jamie had a wonderful summer! Instead of watching TV all day like he has in the past, he spent his days using the computer and surfing the internet".
Great. He went from being a "couch potato" to being a "mouse potato"!
All that being said, social research says that most childhood friendships are based upon COMMON and SIMILAR INTERESTS. Sports fans hang out with sports fans...basketball players hang out with basketball players...cheerleaders hang out with cheerleaders.
If the "group" that your child wants to break into plays video games...LET HIM. Encourage him. It may be the "social key" that unlocks that door.
Question from Jerry Gonzalez, Second Grade Inclusion Teacher, Pulaski Elementary # 8 School Passaic Public School District:
I wanted to know what your thoughts were about Inclusion. Do you think it works for students with learning disabilites? What do you think the pros and cons are? I ask this because many whom I have come across say that not enough is being done to include the child with learning disabilities in the regular education classroom setting.
Richard Lavoie, M.A., M.Ed.:
Happy Holidays Jerry.
Asking if one likes Inclusion is sort of asking if someone likes pizza...there is good pizza and bad pizza...thick crust or thin crust...vegetarian or meat lovers.
In other words, I love the CONCEPT of Inclusion and the idea of integrating kids with special needs as much as possible and appropriate.
That being said, as I travel the country, I see good, solid, child-oriented Inclusion programs...and some that are extraordinarily poorly planned and ineffective. Despite the fact that Federal Law oversees the Inclusion process, it varies from school system to school system.
Because this chat is about Social Skills, let me say that Inclusion - in and of itself - will NOT improve a child's social competence. Some educators believe that providing an LD child with positive social role models will automatically enhance his social skills. Not true. These kids do not learn social skills by merely watching and replicating the good social skills of others (if this was the case, why wouldn't they have learned these skills by watching their parents and siblings?). These kids need a concentrated, well-planned approach to improve their social competence.
Question from Joe Smith:
What do you think about the push around inclusion and how do we help reg ed teachers to assist LD students to make it in their class around socialization skills and understanding non spoken expectations and untaught patterns of the classroom flow
Richard Lavoie, M.A., M.Ed.:
Happy Holidays, Joe. In a previous question I discussed my ambivalent feelings about inclusion. It can be a mine field unless parents, teachers and administrators work together.
The key to the success of any inclusion/socialization program can be summed up in two words: Staff Development. Teachers,counsellors, coaches and parents must be provided with current and field-tested information about the nature of social skill problems...and the strategies and techniques that can be used to monitor and remediate these difficulties.
Teachers need to remember that we don't teach courses...we teach kids.
Question from Mary Gerrard, mother of six children, two with learning disabilities currently attending Junior High:
When does the teasing stop? One of my sons doesn't realize the kids are taking advantage of him in his eagerness to have friends and the other is afraid to interface with his pears because of past teasing. What can I do to help my boys find balance? Neither one responds defensively when interfacing with adults or peers. They are also small for their ages. This makes interfacing with boys in their classes even more difficult because the majority of them have been held back in class due to LD's and these kids are angry!
Richard Lavoie, M.A., M.Ed.:
Quite simply, Mary, the teasing will NOT stop until the adults in the situation take definitive action. We cannot continue to view teasing as a rite of passage.
When one kid is confronted for verbally bullying another, he will often "defend" himself by saying that "he was only kidding around with him".
Rule of Thumb: You only "kid around" with someone you like.
I recall having this conversation with Brad, a 10 year old who had reduced his classmates, William, to tears by playing an unwelcomed game of "Hat keep away" at recess.
Rick: That was cruel and unfair, Brad. Brad: But I was only joking with him...you know, fooling around. Rick: Nope. "Fooling and Joking" can only occur between friends and people who like each other. I know that you don't like William. He is not your friend. What you did, Brad, was bullying...not fooling.
Question from Connie Ajay, parent..:
How do you get the schools to buy into the "social skills" deficits? They are so considered about academics and AYP scores that there is not enough time in the school day to practice social skills in a natural setting...Suggestions?
Richard Lavoie, M.A., M.Ed.:
Let me tell you a story, Connie.
Several years ago, a group of Special Ed teachers approached me after a speaking engagement. They worked for a difficult and insensitive principal who had little understanding or tolerance for special needs kids.
"We want to start a Homework Telephone Hotline for these kids to assist them with their homework in the evening. How do we convince our principal that this will really help the kids?"
I responded: "You don't. Rather, convince him that a Hotline will make HIS life easier...no more angry phone calls from frustrated parents about homework issues...no more complaints from teachers about the kids' poor homework performance...easier, smoother IEP meetings, etc. Convince him that this project will help HIM!"
You see, Connie? Try to convince the teacher that there is something in it for HER to foster the kid's social skills.....and that she will improve her chances of increasing her AYP goals as a result of these efforts!
A very insightful elementary school teacher once said to me:
"I used to think that promoting social skills and helping kids to make friends was the PARENT'S job...not mine. However, I now realize that - if Johnny is worried all morning about being bullied at recess or sitting alone at lunch - he's not going to be receptive to my instruction! If I can help him make a friend, he is less anxious and more able and willing to learn. Social instruction is an INVESTMENT in their success..and ultimately, MINE as well." Very, very wise!
Question from Naomi Weiss, parent, Special Education PTA Board:
How would you integrate a social skill program or strategies into middle school and high school curriculum? How do you train all teachers to instill a sense of understanding and acceptance into the minds of those students who thrive on demeaning others?
Richard Lavoie, M.A., M.Ed.:
Many middle schools have experienced great success with Advisory Groups wherein students are assigned to regularly scheduled groups (8 - 15 kids per group) who meet with a teacher or counsellor to discuss social issues like bullying, cheating, rejection, etc. Each meeting has an agenda covering a topic, but there are also opportunities for free flowing discussions.
Teachers are coached about each topic via handouts or staff development meetings.
Although "zero tolerance anti-bullying policies" are generally ineffective, teachers must be intolerant of bullying (verbal or physical) and must provide positive role models by being accepting and welcoming of all students.
It is always effective for teachers to show particular approval and acceptance of kids who are rejected by the other students. The teacher's acceptance of that child often results in greater acceptance by his classmates.
Interestingly, high school students are less impressed by bullies than are middle school kids. As they develop morally, they begin to see the inherent unfairness of bullying and often begin to reject the bully. In one innovative anti-bullying middle school program, counsellors had high school students - who had been bullies in middle school - return to the middle school to meet with current middle school bullies. They delivered the message that their "popularity via bullying" was short-lived and that they find themselves friendless in high school because of their middle school reputation as a bully. Very effective cautionary tale.
Tom Peters, management guru, once said, "There are three solutions to any institutional problem: Training, Training and Training." Good advice! Your school's staff development program must invest significant time and resources in training staff in social skill training.
Question from Gary Maurer, parent of a teenage boy with ts, adhd, & ocd.:
why, as most experts seem to agree, is it more important for a child with learning disabilities and social issues to have one good friend than be part of a broader peer group?
Richard Lavoie, M.A., M.Ed.:
I can understand your confusion, Gary.
Of course it is important that kids be able to function in group situations....but those of us who deal with LD kids are trained to divide large tasks into small ones and teach those tasks in a step-by-step manner. So most of us recommend that you begin teaching Friendship Skills by "starting small". Once a kid has mastered the skills necessary to deal with ONE friend....he may have the competencies and the confidence to begin to enter larger groups.
Basically, dealing with one friend is the Short Term Goal.....dealing with groups is the Long Term Goal. Another thing to consider is the child's temperament. Perhaps your kid only needs one or two friends.....that's his temperament. Now, your temperament may be more gregarious and you need larger groups in your life. As parents we always need to be careful not to superimpose OUR needs on our kids.
Question from Dr. Sheldon Horowitz:
Rick... Here's a question that I'm sure you've had to deal with a gazillion times in your conversations with kids, parents and school personnel. Regardless of which of the "D" words people use (disability, difference, delay, disorder,...)dealing with a label can be a bitter pill. As hard as we try to help children (and adults!)understand that LD is WHAT THEY HAVE and NOT WHO THEY ARE, what advice might you offer to parents and educators to address the very social and very personal reality of having to deal with this issue?
Richard Lavoie, M.A., M.Ed.:
Sheldon, there is no magic solution to this dilemma. Our society celebrates normalcy and perfection.....anything less is viewed with skepticism. The PEOPLE FIRST MOVEMENT made a somewhat unsuccessful attempt at facing this issue by urging parents and professionals to refer to those with disabilities as - for example - "Kids with Learning Disabilities" rather than "Learning Disabled Kids". But these changes are cosmetic....and minimally effective.
Rather, we need to work together to make a truly meaningful societal change. The media must begin to present people with disabilities in a more realistic way wherein they are portrayed as PEOPLE....with less focus on their weaknesses and needs. I am not a fan of Forrest Gump (although I think Tom Hanks is great !!) because it gave a very unrealistic portrayal of people with disabilities.
Question from Donna Roos,Mother of an 8yr.old son with learning disabilities and a.d.h.d.:
Hello.What advice can I give to my son's 3rd grade teacher to help him understand and help my son on the playground at recess time,so that my son gets to play with other children.He plays by himself often.
Richard Lavoie, M.A., M.Ed.:
Nothing is more painful than watching your child be isolated and rejected by other kids. Perhaps your son's teacher could assign a Recess Buddy to your son (maybe another isolated kid) and she can give the two of them some daily suggestions for recess games and activities.
There are some great ideas for this in a book entitled "You Can't Say 'You Can't Play'"
Question from Donna Jean, parent:
My daughter, now 14, had NVLD and has had a difficult time making friends. Now that she is older, it seems as though,... and this is difficult to discuss,.... but she is trying to be sexy and use sex as a means to make friends with boys. I am obviously keeping very tight controls on her activites and "friends",am talking to her, but am very concerend and am not sure how to solve this issue or what is the most effective approach. Is counseling effective, or what do you recommend?
Richard Lavoie, M.A., M.Ed.:
Tough one, Donna!
As human beings, we like to think that our parents and our kids never have sex...despite all evidence to the contrary. You are wise to recognize - and deal with - this aspect of your daughter's development.
Promiscuity is often a problem for adolescent girls with special needs. This is caused by two factors:
1. SELF ESTEEM: Girls begin to develop the attitude; "I don't do well in school, in sports or in the community...but there is ONE thing I can do REALLY well! Maybe that's my ticket to popularity."
2. TIMING and STAGING: Kids with NVLD often view relationships as a PRODUCT not a PROCESS. They expect relationships to develop far too quickly. As a result, they take liberties that are inappropriate when you consider the relationship (e.g., asking a new acquaintance to lend him $10). This misimpression causes difficulty in boy/girl relationships. She needs to understand that sexual acts are NOT appropriate in the beginning stages of a relationship.
Talk frankly to her about this and discuss the damage that these behaviors can have upon reputation.
If you feel uncomfortable with this, a professional counsellor - with experience in NVLD - should be contacted. Perhaps the counsellor would serve as an advisor to YOU...not providing direct services to your daughter.
Question from Michele P.:
My daughter is 9. What do I need to be concerned about in the social end of things as she approaches her early teenage years? Despite coming from a very wonderful and loving family, I see certain social interacting issues that may hinder her decision-making process when she gets older regarding who to make friends with, who to date, etc. Please advise how I can curtail some of these behavioral issues. Thank you.
Richard Lavoie, M.A., M.Ed.:
Michele,
I would suggest that you try to get your daughter involved in playdates, teams, groups or other activities that give her an opportunity to interact with other kids.
Your affection for her is obvious, but even the most loving and attentive family cannot meet all of her social needs or teach her all the necessary social skills. There are some skills that can only be learned in the rough-and-tumble interaction between and among peers!
Question from Gina Robuck, Educational Consultant/Advocate, Solutions-4-Kids, Inc.:
Hi Rick, As a school psychologist for the past 10 years and now consultant/advocate for the past 2 years I have had a hand in developing social goals/objectives. In my opinion, they are very difficult to write and progress monitor. Do you have any resources/curriculums specific to special educators/social workers for kids at the elementary level to help write those type of goals as well as to work with students in accomplishing those goals. Thanks!
Richard Lavoie, M.A., M.Ed.:
Hi Gina, A teacher once told me, "Writing social goals for ADD/LD kids is like trying to nail Jello to the wall". It is exceedingly difficult to quantify social behavior. There also is the issue of temperament to consider. What behaviors are inappropriate versus what behaviors are due to the child's temperament. A good resource would be "Promoting Social Competence" published by Therapy Skill Builders. The authors (Williamson and Dorman) provide a very useful list of social objectives. Good luck.
Question from CR Williams:
How early can a child be diagnosed as having a learning disability?
Richard Lavoie, M.A., M.Ed.:
I have a very conservative bias about this. Some professionals feel that LD can be diagnosed at two or three years old (a mother once approached me after a speaking engagement to discuss her "nine month old daughter with a learning disability"!)
I feel that before a child enters school, he can be identified as "at risk", but you can't make a definitive diagnosis at that point. Others may disagree with me, but I feel that if you find ten preschoolers identified as "at risk" (not just "quirky") and you check on them in ten years - you will discover that 4 of them are identified as LD, 2 will have been identified as having emotional problems, 1 of them has a neurological deficit, and 3 of them just "out grew it".
I am a strong believer in Early Identification....an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. The earlier we identify these kids, the better. BUT we need to be careful about labeling them too early. Their performance in the classroom will be the deciding factor in their ultimate diagnosis. The diagnosis will determine the Treatment Plan so we need to be judicious about getting the diagnosis right !!
Question from Becky, mother:
My recently adopted 8 year old has LD and social skill challenges. When he plays with other children he is loud and sometimes too rough. Around certain adults he becomes verbally abusive (name calling, ugly comments). At home with family he is a sweet, loving little boy. Why the changes?
Richard Lavoie, M.A., M.Ed.:
This won't make you feel much better, Becky, but those are fairly common behaviors for kids with social skill problems. I suggest that you have a sensitive and low key discussion with your son about these behaviors...but do it "when the waters are calm". Wait until the two of you are enjoying each other's company and broach the issue. Again, you may want to arrange a secret signal with him that you can send when his behavior is becoming inappropriate. Simply get his attention and tug on your ear to let him know that he is beginning to lose control. Kids appreciate this strategy because the parent doesn't embarrass him in front of others. My book has a lot of suggestions of dealing with kids who appear to be "angels at home" and "demons in public". Again, Becky, this is fairly common - albeit troubling - behavior.
Question from Anita Landoll, Teacher, Halifax (VA) County Schools:
I fear that remediation for the social problems of our students is getting totally lost because of the extreme focus on getting the academics to comply with NCLD. All our time, energy, and effort is going toward academics for these students who are years behind where they should be. In addition, it is becoming increasingly more difficult to mainstream our students because of the extreme academic push in the regular classroom. Elementary school is looking increasingly like a little kids high school. Which of course is causing more problems. What suggestions do you have?
Richard Lavoie, M.A., M.Ed.:
I agree 100% with your observations, Anita. Not only are we decreasing our focus on social development, we are eliminating many of the informal spontaneously "laboratories" that kids need in order to foster the basic social skills of sharing, following the rules, waiting your turn and winning/losing gracefully.
I was in Portland, Oregon last week and read in the local paper that school officials had eliminated recess for all elementary schools in the district. How can kids learn and master social skills if they have no opportunity to utilize and practice these skills?
All of this is particularly unfortunate in light of the fact that it has been well established that the ultimate adult success of kids with LD will be determined by their social skills not their academic skills.
Elementary schools have become like mini-high schools. We seem to have forgotten everything we know about child development! This generation of kids is more sophisticated (they can program the cell phone and play X-Box!) than previous generations, but they are not more mature. They are still little kids! They are not miniature adults. We need to do what we can to preserve their childhoods. Constantly remind your colleagues that we do not have the right to rob kids of their childhoods. If we do, we will regret it later. In the words of Menninger, "That which society does to children, they will do to society."
Richard Lavoie, M.A., M.Ed.:
Thank you for joining the program tonight. Reading your emails only served to confirm my long held belief that social skills present the greatest challenge to our kids. The average child spends about 1000 hours a year in the classroom....that represents less than 20% of his waking hours. The balance of his time is spent in school hallways, playgrounds, ball fields, school buses and in the community. It is those settings that present the greatest challenge to kids with learning problems.
We need to provide these kids with the assistance and attention that they need. In the wise words of Karl Menninger: That which society does to children, they will do to society.
Continue to fight the good fight for God's special kids...simply because they deserve it.
With every good wish, Rick
Dr. Sheldon Horowitz (Moderator):
The hour is up and we need to bring this LDTalk to a close. Thank you to everyone who submitted questions and to all who joined in and followed the discussion.
A very special thanks to Rick Lavoie for sharing his expertise with us. A transcript of today's chat will be available at www.LDTalk.org very soon.
I invite you to learn more about Rick's new book, videos and speaking engagements.
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Good evening and welcome to LD Talk, the Web's only online discussion devoted to topics of interest to the learning disabilities community.
LD Talk is a service of the National Center for Learning Disabilities (NCLD). Funding for LD Talk is generously provided by SchwabLearning.org.
It's a pleasure to welcome you all to tonight's chat - Thanks for joining us!
/Lavoie_Richard.jpg) Richard Lavoie Photograph by John Madere It's So Much Work To Be Your Friend, Touchstone |
Richard Lavoie, M.A., M.Ed. has served as an administrator of residential programs for children with special needs since 1972. He holds three degrees in Special Education and has served as an adjunct professor or visiting lecturer at numerous universities including Syracuse, Harvard, Gallaudet, Manhattanville College, University of Alabama and Georgetown.
Rick is probably best known for his videos "How Difficult Can This Be?: The F.A.T. City Workshop" and "Last One Picked, First One Picked On: The Social Implications of Learning Disabilities".
Rick's newest resource is "It's So Much Work to Be Your Friend : Helping the Child with Learning Disabilities Find Social Success," his insightful guidebook to helping children with learning disabilities overcome social skill deficits.
I am Dr. Sheldon Horowitz, Director of Professional Services at the National Center for Learning Disabilities, and I'll be the moderator of today�s discussion.
To those of you who have submitted questions in advance of tonight's chat, many thanks! As usual, we encourage everyone to send in questions and we'll try to respond to those that are most closely related to our discussion topic and of the broadest interest to our audience. (If you have questions unrelated to this topic, please feel free to send them to NCLD's Help Desk at This e-mail address is being protected from spam bots, you need JavaScript enabled to view it )
Let's now begin the discussion.
Question from James Dunderman, Learning Disabilities Teacher Consultant:
Thanks for your work. It teaches about the true nature of Learning Disabilities. Your F.A.T. City workshop was a very helpful part of that process. The lack of nuance in their social skills abilities causes some LD adolescents to appear surly and indifferent. This causes a cycle of conflict with authority figures that unfortunately lands some in the criminal justice system. They then don't know how to present themselves clearly before a judge and can be reprimanded more harshly. Are there any suggestions to remedy this situation for the students and those in positions of authority?
Richard Lavoie, M.A., M.Ed.:
Thanks for your kind words, James.
The link between LD and delinquency is undeniable. These kids are presented with a "Strike One, Strike Two, Strike Three" in regard to this link.
Strike One: They are more likely to get involved in crime because they can't get gainful jobs.
Strike Two: They are more likely to get caught for their crime because they plan and implement poorly.
Strike Three: They are more likely to receive stiffer punishments because of their inability to handle judicial proceeding appropriately.
There is a chapter in my book, "It's So Much Work to Be Your Friend: Helping the Child with Learning Disabilities Find Social Success," about paralinguistics or nonverbal language. Many kids with LD have difficulty in an area known as VOCALICS. They do not understand how the tone of their voice can completely change the message.
For example, suppose my brother said to me: "Your new car looks great. I'm going to take it for a drive."
I respond, "Try it!"
Depending on my tone of voice I am either INVITING or FORBIDDING him from driving the car!
Because kids with language problems don't understand this, they often are very sarcastic and contentious with authority figures...EVEN THOUGH THEY DON'T MEAN TO BE. This can cause havoc when being interviewed by police or court personnel.
Kids need very deliberate coaching when entering such an interview and the authority figure needs to understand that the child's behavior may be unintentional.
In the ASK RICK archives on LDOnline I wrote an essay for police personnel on the "care and feeding" of suspects with LD.
Question from Linda,parent OJR school District:
My 11 year old son is diagnosed with ADD.My husband and I both see him act very differently ( nervous & uncomfortable)in social situations,like scouts and school events. How can we help him to be more like himself and feel comfortable in these situations?
Richard Lavoie, M.A., M.Ed.:
Hello, Linda. You need to convince your son that the behaviors that he uses at home that make him a desirable and appealing social partner will also work at school. Give him lots of praise and positive reinforcement when he acts appropriately and encourage him to replicate that behavior in public events. We need to understand that public situations are extraordinarily difficult for ADD kids because of their problems with transitions and dealing with new situations. He needs a great deal of preparation before entering a new situation. By coaching him and letting him know what the expectations for the situation will be, he is more likely to handle it appropriately. It is also a good idea to inform the group leader of your son's problems and provide some suggestions that will be helpful in controlling the boy's behavior.
Question from Carla Owens, Support Group Leader, Northwest Arkansas Tourette Syndrome Support Group:
Mr. Lavoie, Our support group has watched two of your videos and have found that you have given us a valuable insight to the social aspects of Tourette Syndrome - Thank you. My question is: As you may know, Tourette Syndrome children/adults have motor/vocal tics, ADHD/ADD, and usually OCD and learning disabilities. Since I have been involved with TS (10 years) I have seen that the social problems don't really become a problem until adolescents (when the Tourettes usually worsens) - Between puberty, teenagerhood, and as TS becoming more of an issue at this time - How can you help them "see" their social problems so they can have a meaningful relationship with a peer (who is usually 2-3 years ahead in the maturity department)?
Richard Lavoie, M.A., M.Ed.:
Thanks for your generous words. In the mid 1970's I had a child in my class with bizarre and inexplicable behaviors. We tried every imaginable strategy to "get him to behave" - with a heavy emphasis on punishment. Several years later, when I learned about TS, I realized that he was a classic TS child. I have always regretted our misdiagnosis and, ever since, have had a passion for educating teachers about this puzzling disorder. I commend you and your group for your good work.
I would suggest there is an additional variable that is contributing to the rejection of a child with TS during adolescence...the nature of adolescence itself! Adolescence is the only period in the lifespan in which anything or anyone that is "different" is automatically suspect. Little kids are fascinated by "different things". Adults are intrigued by "differences". But adolescents automatically reject and/or isolate anything or anyone that does not comply with the norm!
You are wise to prepare your pre-adolescent for his entrance into his adolescent years. You and/or a counsellor should provide him with advice on how to initiate friendships (and maintain them!). He must also develop some degree of "acceptance" of his disorder. Provide him with structured, supportive (and monitored!) opportunities to interact with peers in order to assist him in developing the necessary social skills.
Many parents and professionals have told me that the "Social Skill Autopsy" strategy outlined in my book has been very effective with the child with Tourettes.
Adolescence is often the most difficult and challenging period in the lifespan of a person with a neurological disorder. The normal angst and pain of adolescence is compounded by the complication of their disability. These kids need our support, sensitivity and understanding.
Question from B Williams, parent:
What strategies, supports or resources do you recommend for a preschooler with social skills challenges who is at-risk for LD's based on family history and diagnosed ADHD?
Richard Lavoie, M.A., M.Ed.:
You will want to keep in very close contact with the child's teachers and pediatrician and keep an eye out for the telltale symptoms that a child may manifest. Most LD websites provide a list of these symptoms. Convert these lists into a checklist and carefully monitor the boy's progress and performance. As the Boys Scouts say, "Always be prepared".
Question from Beth Karon Goldberg, Sp. Ed. Attorney:
Should schools be asked to provide training in social skills for children with learning disabilities even if the area of social skills is not the major area of impact of the disability?
Richard Lavoie, M.A., M.Ed.:
Yes. Schools need to be willing and able to deal with "the whole child" and work to foster all areas of his development...academic, cognitive and social.
I encourage teachers to teach the FOUR R's: Reading, 'Riting, 'Rithmetic...and relationships
Question from Patti Hinton, Special Education Teacher, Ft. Thomas Elementary.:
Over the years all of my SLD boy students; all of them, without exception, have appeared to be extremely immature. Most, but not all have been impulsive. Many have been highly energetic. Some have been lethargic. But all (from age 6 to 13) have had the primary impulse to "play" at any given moment. Any object can and will be made into a toy. Every free moment, and every not-so-free moment, turns into shoot-em-up, zooming cars, wrestling, superhero, etc... In addition they are years behind their peers at reaching social developmental stages. My question is... Is the appearance of immaturity a symptom or a byproduct of a learning disability?
Richard Lavoie, M.A., M.Ed.:
Patti, your observation doesn't surprise me. In the 1980's, kids with LD were often referred to as "developmentally delayed." There is a degree of immaturity during LD kids due to their neurologically based difficulties. Socially, this causes difficulty because a 12 year old with 7 year old social competencies will attempt to make friends with other 12 year olds by using strategies generally used by 7 year olds (attracting potential friends by bringing toys to school).
Your student's tendency to act out or misbehavior with minimal provocation or cause is probably due to their impulsivity and their understandable desire to avoid the challenging academic tasks that your are requiring of them. So, in answer to your question, this behavior is both a symptom AND a byproduct of their learning problems.
The primary need of all human beings is to be liked and accepted by other human beings. These kids want to be liked by others. If you have a good relationship with these kids, you may want to have a serious, supportive, sensitive talk with them about their behavior.
I don't generally recommend comparing kids to one another, but you might try something like this: "Guys, I really enjoy you and I want to give you some advice. Your constant playing, disrupting and wrestling are behaviors that you generally see with younger kids. Most kids your age are able to work on projects for an hour or two at a time without fooling around. We need to begin to change your behavior so - when you go into other classes - the kids will accept and welcome you. Let's begin to record and chart the intervals between disruptions and let's work together to see if we can continually increase the time between disruptions."
I don't mean to get sexist here, but...another problem is that many adolescents have no male role models in their lives. As a result, they haven't had the opportunity to see men interact with one another. Maybe a male teacher or counsellor could get together with your guys and tell them that men do not interact and communicate via noogies, headlocks and fake shootouts. He could encourage the boys to interact in a more mature manner. Worth a shot!
Question from Virginia Roesell, adult with learning disabilities:
Hi. I am a 38 year old wife and mother who has learning disabilities. I would be most interested, for myself and my husband, as to how these social skill problems play out in my situation and in the lives of other adults with LD, in your experience. It seems most of what I see online about LD is just about children, and while that is important, it is just as important to help adults with learning disabilities, as it is not a condition one grows out of. Thank you so much.
Richard Lavoie, M.A., M.Ed.:
"Yes, Virginia, there ARE social competence problems with adults with LD."
True language/learning disabilities are neurologically-based and the neurological system in the human body is the only system that cannot repair itself. Therefore, the child with learning disabilities is destined to become and adult with a learning disability. It simply does not go away.
When the LD child grows up, he often finds the world a puzzling and confusing place. He is doubly burdened because he had minimal opportunities to practice his social skills as a child because he was rejected and isolated at school and in the community.
Fortunately, there are some terrific resources available for adults who wish to improve their social skills Among them:
"You Mean I'm Not Lazy, Stupid or Crazy?"" by Kate Kelly
"What Does Everyone Know that I Don't Know" by Michelle Novotni
"ADD in Adults" by L. Weiss
"Add Through the Life Span" by Paul Wender
Question from Richard Roux, Parent:
Rick, We have a daughter 12 in PA public school with an IEP. She receives social skills education once per week. She knows many of the expected social skills but can't seem to build the discipline to apply it in social situations. Simple things like saying hello or smiling are often left out when a greeting situation presents itself. Any suggestions? Thanks, Rich
Richard Lavoie, M.A., M.Ed.:
Happy Holiday, Rich!
Your daughter would benefit from an approach championed by Syracuse University's Arnold Goldstein. In order to foster the generalization of targeted social skills, he recommends assigning "social homework".
It goes like this:
"Kelly, today we learned that, when waiting in line at a store, you should move up as the line moves up and get your money ready. Now, sometime this week, I want you to use that skill and report back to me."
This strategy encourages and requires kids to look for opportunities to use their newly acquired social skills.
This really works!
You may also want to establish a signal system with your daughter wherein you give her a pre-arranged, secret signal when she is making a social error. ("Melissa, when you get excited, you often raise your voice and get really loud. When you do this, I will get your attention and wink at you. That's your signal to lower your volume a bit.").
Question from Allen Regar, Learning Specialist, All Kinds of Minds:
Rick,
While there exist many ways for students with special needs to receive interventions and accomodations in the classroom, much student interaction and experience occurs outside the classroom: in the halls, the lunchroom, during recess, and after school. These are critical social times that kids with language, attention, and other other challenges may come to dread. How do we as educators encourage and help to create a culture of acceptance and respect during these times?
Richard Lavoie, M.A., M.Ed.:
Allen, best wishes to all of my friends at All Kinds of Minds! You guys are the best!
The average kid spends 1000 hours a year in the classroom. This comprises less than 20% of his waking hours! The remaining 80% of his time is spent in school hallways, the cafeteria, recess, the bus, Grandma's house, the mall and the neighborhood.
There are lots of strategies to increase the acceptance of these kids, but the most important (and effective) technique is rooted in the behavior and attitude of the ADULT in the situation. If the coach, teacher or group leader consistently demonstrates her acceptance of and affection for the isolated/rejected kid, the other kids are far more likely to accept the child.
Conversely, if the adult displays his frustration and rejection of the kid, the others will follow suit. My book contains several strategies designed to prepare the LD child for these social situations.
Question from Wendy Ericsson, parent:
Are social skills programs worthwhile in terms of enabling children to succeed in social situations outside of the social skills groups? Or are they a big waste of money?
Richard Lavoie, M.A., M.Ed.:
Wendy, you have asked me to enter the lion's den! Professionals are deeply divided on this issue. Some professionals feel that Social Skill Groups are THE ANSWER to fostering social competence. However, some professionals feel that groups are largely ineffective.
Well...here goes! I agree with the second group! I feel that it is generally ineffective to take a group of socially inappropriate kids and bring them together on a Saturday morning to discuss social skills! This approach is unlikely to HURT anyone...but it's not likely to HELP very much, either.
You see, these kids simply don't learn in a clinical and contrived setting. They need to learn in a more natural and "real" environment. I often tell parents "If you want to teach your kid how to eat in a restaurant, don't set up a faux restaurant in your kitchen to rehearse these skills...TAKE HIM TO A RESTAURANT. If you want to teach him how to stand in a line properly...take him to the bank."
I find that the skills that are "learned" in these Social Skill Groups seldom generalize to other settings. Further, when given Social Scenarios in these groups ("What would you do if you were the only kid in class who was not invited to a birthday party?"), they can generally give you an appropriate response. But when they get in the rough-and-tumble social environment of the playground or the school bus, their impulsivity and disinhibition will generally cause them to make a social error.
Now that I have alienated all the counsellors and therapists who conduct Social Groups for a living, let me say that Groups are not a "waste of money"...but they aren't THE ANSWER either. These groups must be supplemented with sensitive interventions, autopsies and ongoing counseling.
By the way, I make a differentiation between SOCIAL SKILL GROUPS and SOCIAL GROUPS. The former are designed to directly teach social skills. The latter are designed to give special needs kids an opportunity to hang out, go bowling,etc.....basically, to meet other kids and to make memories. I LOVE these groups!!
Question from Susan Burns, Parent:
I drive as part of a carpool taking three 9 to 11 year old girls to their special school for children with language and learning disabilities (20 minute drive). We have had ongoing difficulties especially in the afternoon (seems like girls get tired after school day; ADD meds are wearing off, etc). Seems like the girls have a difficult time being friends with more than 1 child at a time - then one feels left out, picked on. We have ground rules in terms of behavior but still feelings get hurt. Any hints? Thanks, Susan
Richard Lavoie, M.A., M.Ed.:
Invariably, when you put 3 kids together, it becomes a 2 against 1 situation. In my book "It's So Much Work to Be Your Friend: Helping the Child with Learning Disabilities Find Social Success" I recommend against inviting two kids over for a playdate because you run the risk of the two visitors ganging up on your kid. Not a good idea.
How about this? Let two kids sit in back and converse while - on a rotating basis - one girl gets to sit in front with you...she can control the radio and talk with you. At times, the four of you will be involved in the same conversation. At other times, there will be two parallel conversations occurring simultaneously...sitting in front will be viewed as a treat because she will get individualized attention from you.
Your involvement becomes more intense so you can guide and "referee" as needed.
Give it a try!!
Question from Phyllis Cohen, Parent:
My 17 year old Asperger son, will be graduating from a therapeutic school in St. Louis this spring. Is a residential college better for someone like my son, who has difficulty in socializing? His biggest deficit is socialization with peers.
Richard Lavoie, M.A., M.Ed.:
Phyllis, That's a tough one mainly because I don't have a lot of information about your son. Perhaps you should contact an Educational Consultant. However, we all know that the social environment in a college can be a tremendous challenge for ANY kid. Nearly 25% of college freshmen have significant social difficulty. It sounds as if your son has enjoyed real success in his St. Louis school...you don't want to endanger that progress by placing him in an environment where he might fail. I don't envy you this decision. Small kids...small problems. Big kids...big problems.
Question from Teresa Bueti, Children's Librarian, Chappaqua Library:
Parents ask whether the social advantage (sharing, belonging) of owning/playing video games outweighs any isolating aspects. E.g. does playing a video game eith a peer help a shy/socially awkward child fit in more easily?
Richard Lavoie, M.A., M.Ed.:
Good question, Teresa...and a controversial one.
I regret that, for today's kids, the traditonal board games (Monopoly, Clue, etc.) have been replaced by the XBox, Nintendo and Sega. In order to play a board game with a few other kids, the child had to learn, master and use countless social skills (turn taking, sharing, following rules, waiting your turn, gracious winning, gracious losing, etc.). These activities provided kids with a social laboratory wherein they could use and practice these crucial skills.
Computer games are often solitary. Even when two kids play a game together they seldom converse or interact.
I long for the days before playdates and organized sports when kids simply interacted and "hung out"! We all learned our social skills in those settings.
A parent once told me, "Jamie had a wonderful summer! Instead of watching TV all day like he has in the past, he spent his days using the computer and surfing the internet".
Great. He went from being a "couch potato" to being a "mouse potato"!
All that being said, social research says that most childhood friendships are based upon COMMON and SIMILAR INTERESTS. Sports fans hang out with sports fans...basketball players hang out with basketball players...cheerleaders hang out with cheerleaders.
If the "group" that your child wants to break into plays video games...LET HIM. Encourage him. It may be the "social key" that unlocks that door.
Question from Jerry Gonzalez, Second Grade Inclusion Teacher, Pulaski Elementary # 8 School Passaic Public School District:
I wanted to know what your thoughts were about Inclusion. Do you think it works for students with learning disabilites? What do you think the pros and cons are? I ask this because many whom I have come across say that not enough is being done to include the child with learning disabilities in the regular education classroom setting.
Richard Lavoie, M.A., M.Ed.:
Happy Holidays Jerry.
Asking if one likes Inclusion is sort of asking if someone likes pizza...there is good pizza and bad pizza...thick crust or thin crust...vegetarian or meat lovers.
In other words, I love the CONCEPT of Inclusion and the idea of integrating kids with special needs as much as possible and appropriate.
That being said, as I travel the country, I see good, solid, child-oriented Inclusion programs...and some that are extraordinarily poorly planned and ineffective. Despite the fact that Federal Law oversees the Inclusion process, it varies from school system to school system.
Because this chat is about Social Skills, let me say that Inclusion - in and of itself - will NOT improve a child's social competence. Some educators believe that providing an LD child with positive social role models will automatically enhance his social skills. Not true. These kids do not learn social skills by merely watching and replicating the good social skills of others (if this was the case, why wouldn't they have learned these skills by watching their parents and siblings?). These kids need a concentrated, well-planned approach to improve their social competence.
Question from Joe Smith:
What do you think about the push around inclusion and how do we help reg ed teachers to assist LD students to make it in their class around socialization skills and understanding non spoken expectations and untaught patterns of the classroom flow
Richard Lavoie, M.A., M.Ed.:
Happy Holidays, Joe. In a previous question I discussed my ambivalent feelings about inclusion. It can be a mine field unless parents, teachers and administrators work together.
The key to the success of any inclusion/socialization program can be summed up in two words: Staff Development. Teachers,counsellors, coaches and parents must be provided with current and field-tested information about the nature of social skill problems...and the strategies and techniques that can be used to monitor and remediate these difficulties.
Teachers need to remember that we don't teach courses...we teach kids.
Question from Mary Gerrard, mother of six children, two with learning disabilities currently attending Junior High:
When does the teasing stop? One of my sons doesn't realize the kids are taking advantage of him in his eagerness to have friends and the other is afraid to interface with his pears because of past teasing. What can I do to help my boys find balance? Neither one responds defensively when interfacing with adults or peers. They are also small for their ages. This makes interfacing with boys in their classes even more difficult because the majority of them have been held back in class due to LD's and these kids are angry!
Richard Lavoie, M.A., M.Ed.:
Quite simply, Mary, the teasing will NOT stop until the adults in the situation take definitive action. We cannot continue to view teasing as a rite of passage.
When one kid is confronted for verbally bullying another, he will often "defend" himself by saying that "he was only kidding around with him".
Rule of Thumb: You only "kid around" with someone you like.
I recall having this conversation with Brad, a 10 year old who had reduced his classmates, William, to tears by playing an unwelcomed game of "Hat keep away" at recess.
Rick: That was cruel and unfair, Brad. Brad: But I was only joking with him...you know, fooling around. Rick: Nope. "Fooling and Joking" can only occur between friends and people who like each other. I know that you don't like William. He is not your friend. What you did, Brad, was bullying...not fooling.
Question from Connie Ajay, parent..:
How do you get the schools to buy into the "social skills" deficits? They are so considered about academics and AYP scores that there is not enough time in the school day to practice social skills in a natural setting...Suggestions?
Richard Lavoie, M.A., M.Ed.:
Let me tell you a story, Connie.
Several years ago, a group of Special Ed teachers approached me after a speaking engagement. They worked for a difficult and insensitive principal who had little understanding or tolerance for special needs kids.
"We want to start a Homework Telephone Hotline for these kids to assist them with their homework in the evening. How do we convince our principal that this will really help the kids?"
I responded: "You don't. Rather, convince him that a Hotline will make HIS life easier...no more angry phone calls from frustrated parents about homework issues...no more complaints from teachers about the kids' poor homework performance...easier, smoother IEP meetings, etc. Convince him that this project will help HIM!"
You see, Connie? Try to convince the teacher that there is something in it for HER to foster the kid's social skills.....and that she will improve her chances of increasing her AYP goals as a result of these efforts!
A very insightful elementary school teacher once said to me:
"I used to think that promoting social skills and helping kids to make friends was the PARENT'S job...not mine. However, I now realize that - if Johnny is worried all morning about being bullied at recess or sitting alone at lunch - he's not going to be receptive to my instruction! If I can help him make a friend, he is less anxious and more able and willing to learn. Social instruction is an INVESTMENT in their success..and ultimately, MINE as well." Very, very wise!
Question from Naomi Weiss, parent, Special Education PTA Board:
How would you integrate a social skill program or strategies into middle school and high school curriculum? How do you train all teachers to instill a sense of understanding and acceptance into the minds of those students who thrive on demeaning others?
Richard Lavoie, M.A., M.Ed.:
Many middle schools have experienced great success with Advisory Groups wherein students are assigned to regularly scheduled groups (8 - 15 kids per group) who meet with a teacher or counsellor to discuss social issues like bullying, cheating, rejection, etc. Each meeting has an agenda covering a topic, but there are also opportunities for free flowing discussions.
Teachers are coached about each topic via handouts or staff development meetings.
Although "zero tolerance anti-bullying policies" are generally ineffective, teachers must be intolerant of bullying (verbal or physical) and must provide positive role models by being accepting and welcoming of all students.
It is always effective for teachers to show particular approval and acceptance of kids who are rejected by the other students. The teacher's acceptance of that child often results in greater acceptance by his classmates.
Interestingly, high school students are less impressed by bullies than are middle school kids. As they develop morally, they begin to see the inherent unfairness of bullying and often begin to reject the bully. In one innovative anti-bullying middle school program, counsellors had high school students - who had been bullies in middle school - return to the middle school to meet with current middle school bullies. They delivered the message that their "popularity via bullying" was short-lived and that they find themselves friendless in high school because of their middle school reputation as a bully. Very effective cautionary tale.
Tom Peters, management guru, once said, "There are three solutions to any institutional problem: Training, Training and Training." Good advice! Your school's staff development program must invest significant time and resources in training staff in social skill training.
Question from Gary Maurer, parent of a teenage boy with ts, adhd, & ocd.:
why, as most experts seem to agree, is it more important for a child with learning disabilities and social issues to have one good friend than be part of a broader peer group?
Richard Lavoie, M.A., M.Ed.:
I can understand your confusion, Gary.
Of course it is important that kids be able to function in group situations....but those of us who deal with LD kids are trained to divide large tasks into small ones and teach those tasks in a step-by-step manner. So most of us recommend that you begin teaching Friendship Skills by "starting small". Once a kid has mastered the skills necessary to deal with ONE friend....he may have the competencies and the confidence to begin to enter larger groups.
Basically, dealing with one friend is the Short Term Goal.....dealing with groups is the Long Term Goal. Another thing to consider is the child's temperament. Perhaps your kid only needs one or two friends.....that's his temperament. Now, your temperament may be more gregarious and you need larger groups in your life. As parents we always need to be careful not to superimpose OUR needs on our kids.
Question from Dr. Sheldon Horowitz:
Rick... Here's a question that I'm sure you've had to deal with a gazillion times in your conversations with kids, parents and school personnel. Regardless of which of the "D" words people use (disability, difference, delay, disorder,...)dealing with a label can be a bitter pill. As hard as we try to help children (and adults!)understand that LD is WHAT THEY HAVE and NOT WHO THEY ARE, what advice might you offer to parents and educators to address the very social and very personal reality of having to deal with this issue?
Richard Lavoie, M.A., M.Ed.:
Sheldon, there is no magic solution to this dilemma. Our society celebrates normalcy and perfection.....anything less is viewed with skepticism. The PEOPLE FIRST MOVEMENT made a somewhat unsuccessful attempt at facing this issue by urging parents and professionals to refer to those with disabilities as - for example - "Kids with Learning Disabilities" rather than "Learning Disabled Kids". But these changes are cosmetic....and minimally effective.
Rather, we need to work together to make a truly meaningful societal change. The media must begin to present people with disabilities in a more realistic way wherein they are portrayed as PEOPLE....with less focus on their weaknesses and needs. I am not a fan of Forrest Gump (although I think Tom Hanks is great !!) because it gave a very unrealistic portrayal of people with disabilities.
Question from Donna Roos,Mother of an 8yr.old son with learning disabilities and a.d.h.d.:
Hello.What advice can I give to my son's 3rd grade teacher to help him understand and help my son on the playground at recess time,so that my son gets to play with other children.He plays by himself often.
Richard Lavoie, M.A., M.Ed.:
Nothing is more painful than watching your child be isolated and rejected by other kids. Perhaps your son's teacher could assign a Recess Buddy to your son (maybe another isolated kid) and she can give the two of them some daily suggestions for recess games and activities.
There are some great ideas for this in a book entitled "You Can't Say 'You Can't Play'"
Question from Donna Jean, parent:
My daughter, now 14, had NVLD and has had a difficult time making friends. Now that she is older, it seems as though,... and this is difficult to discuss,.... but she is trying to be sexy and use sex as a means to make friends with boys. I am obviously keeping very tight controls on her activites and "friends",am talking to her, but am very concerend and am not sure how to solve this issue or what is the most effective approach. Is counseling effective, or what do you recommend?
Richard Lavoie, M.A., M.Ed.:
Tough one, Donna!
As human beings, we like to think that our parents and our kids never have sex...despite all evidence to the contrary. You are wise to recognize - and deal with - this aspect of your daughter's development.
Promiscuity is often a problem for adolescent girls with special needs. This is caused by two factors:
1. SELF ESTEEM: Girls begin to develop the attitude; "I don't do well in school, in sports or in the community...but there is ONE thing I can do REALLY well! Maybe that's my ticket to popularity."
2. TIMING and STAGING: Kids with NVLD often view relationships as a PRODUCT not a PROCESS. They expect relationships to develop far too quickly. As a result, they take liberties that are inappropriate when you consider the relationship (e.g., asking a new acquaintance to lend him $10). This misimpression causes difficulty in boy/girl relationships. She needs to understand that sexual acts are NOT appropriate in the beginning stages of a relationship.
Talk frankly to her about this and discuss the damage that these behaviors can have upon reputation.
If you feel uncomfortable with this, a professional counsellor - with experience in NVLD - should be contacted. Perhaps the counsellor would serve as an advisor to YOU...not providing direct services to your daughter.
Question from Michele P.:
My daughter is 9. What do I need to be concerned about in the social end of things as she approaches her early teenage years? Despite coming from a very wonderful and loving family, I see certain social interacting issues that may hinder her decision-making process when she gets older regarding who to make friends with, who to date, etc. Please advise how I can curtail some of these behavioral issues. Thank you.
Richard Lavoie, M.A., M.Ed.:
Michele,
I would suggest that you try to get your daughter involved in playdates, teams, groups or other activities that give her an opportunity to interact with other kids.
Your affection for her is obvious, but even the most loving and attentive family cannot meet all of her social needs or teach her all the necessary social skills. There are some skills that can only be learned in the rough-and-tumble interaction between and among peers!
Question from Gina Robuck, Educational Consultant/Advocate, Solutions-4-Kids, Inc.:
Hi Rick, As a school psychologist for the past 10 years and now consultant/advocate for the past 2 years I have had a hand in developing social goals/objectives. In my opinion, they are very difficult to write and progress monitor. Do you have any resources/curriculums specific to special educators/social workers for kids at the elementary level to help write those type of goals as well as to work with students in accomplishing those goals. Thanks!
Richard Lavoie, M.A., M.Ed.:
Hi Gina, A teacher once told me, "Writing social goals for ADD/LD kids is like trying to nail Jello to the wall". It is exceedingly difficult to quantify social behavior. There also is the issue of temperament to consider. What behaviors are inappropriate versus what behaviors are due to the child's temperament. A good resource would be "Promoting Social Competence" published by Therapy Skill Builders. The authors (Williamson and Dorman) provide a very useful list of social objectives. Good luck.
Question from CR Williams:
How early can a child be diagnosed as having a learning disability?
Richard Lavoie, M.A., M.Ed.:
I have a very conservative bias about this. Some professionals feel that LD can be diagnosed at two or three years old (a mother once approached me after a speaking engagement to discuss her "nine month old daughter with a learning disability"!)
I feel that before a child enters school, he can be identified as "at risk", but you can't make a definitive diagnosis at that point. Others may disagree with me, but I feel that if you find ten preschoolers identified as "at risk" (not just "quirky") and you check on them in ten years - you will discover that 4 of them are identified as LD, 2 will have been identified as having emotional problems, 1 of them has a neurological deficit, and 3 of them just "out grew it".
I am a strong believer in Early Identification....an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. The earlier we identify these kids, the better. BUT we need to be careful about labeling them too early. Their performance in the classroom will be the deciding factor in their ultimate diagnosis. The diagnosis will determine the Treatment Plan so we need to be judicious about getting the diagnosis right !!
Question from Becky, mother:
My recently adopted 8 year old has LD and social skill challenges. When he plays with other children he is loud and sometimes too rough. Around certain adults he becomes verbally abusive (name calling, ugly comments). At home with family he is a sweet, loving little boy. Why the changes?
Richard Lavoie, M.A., M.Ed.:
This won't make you feel much better, Becky, but those are fairly common behaviors for kids with social skill problems. I suggest that you have a sensitive and low key discussion with your son about these behaviors...but do it "when the waters are calm". Wait until the two of you are enjoying each other's company and broach the issue. Again, you may want to arrange a secret signal with him that you can send when his behavior is becoming inappropriate. Simply get his attention and tug on your ear to let him know that he is beginning to lose control. Kids appreciate this strategy because the parent doesn't embarrass him in front of others. My book has a lot of suggestions of dealing with kids who appear to be "angels at home" and "demons in public". Again, Becky, this is fairly common - albeit troubling - behavior.
Question from Anita Landoll, Teacher, Halifax (VA) County Schools:
I fear that remediation for the social problems of our students is getting totally lost because of the extreme focus on getting the academics to comply with NCLD. All our time, energy, and effort is going toward academics for these students who are years behind where they should be. In addition, it is becoming increasingly more difficult to mainstream our students because of the extreme academic push in the regular classroom. Elementary school is looking increasingly like a little kids high school. Which of course is causing more problems. What suggestions do you have?
Richard Lavoie, M.A., M.Ed.:
I agree 100% with your observations, Anita. Not only are we decreasing our focus on social development, we are eliminating many of the informal spontaneously "laboratories" that kids need in order to foster the basic social skills of sharing, following the rules, waiting your turn and winning/losing gracefully.
I was in Portland, Oregon last week and read in the local paper that school officials had eliminated recess for all elementary schools in the district. How can kids learn and master social skills if they have no opportunity to utilize and practice these skills?
All of this is particularly unfortunate in light of the fact that it has been well established that the ultimate adult success of kids with LD will be determined by their social skills not their academic skills.
Elementary schools have become like mini-high schools. We seem to have forgotten everything we know about child development! This generation of kids is more sophisticated (they can program the cell phone and play X-Box!) than previous generations, but they are not more mature. They are still little kids! They are not miniature adults. We need to do what we can to preserve their childhoods. Constantly remind your colleagues that we do not have the right to rob kids of their childhoods. If we do, we will regret it later. In the words of Menninger, "That which society does to children, they will do to society."
Richard Lavoie, M.A., M.Ed.:
Thank you for joining the program tonight. Reading your emails only served to confirm my long held belief that social skills present the greatest challenge to our kids. The average child spends about 1000 hours a year in the classroom....that represents less than 20% of his waking hours. The balance of his time is spent in school hallways, playgrounds, ball fields, school buses and in the community. It is those settings that present the greatest challenge to kids with learning problems.
We need to provide these kids with the assistance and attention that they need. In the wise words of Karl Menninger: That which society does to children, they will do to society.
Continue to fight the good fight for God's special kids...simply because they deserve it.
With every good wish, Rick
Dr. Sheldon Horowitz (Moderator):
The hour is up and we need to bring this LDTalk to a close. Thank you to everyone who submitted questions and to all who joined in and followed the discussion.
A very special thanks to Rick Lavoie for sharing his expertise with us. A transcript of today's chat will be available at www.LDTalk.org very soon.
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